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The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

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Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#51
post #40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does pilot wave theory violate locality -- does it assume that the pilot waves travel faster than light? And if so, is it necessary for the pilot waves to travel faster than light or can they be limited to the speed of light and preserve locality?

> Why does pilot wave theory violate locality -- does it assume that the pilot waves travel faster than light? Yes. The pilot wave at any given point can be affected instantaneously by changes anywhere else in the universe.

But in this regard the pilot wave is not different from the standard Schroedinger’s wavefunction, is it?

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#52
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pilot wave theory is based on the assumption that every particle is interacting with the entire Universe all the time.

Does it have to be the simultaneous version of the current universe or can it be the universe as it was distance/c ago? Actually with relativity and all I'm not exactly sure there is a just a single correct definition of the instantaneous state of the universe.

Experiments have shown that pilot waves would have to travel faster than the speed of light.

My understanding of the experiment is as follows:

Take two entangled photons, beam them up to satellites far away from each other. The satellites have detectors that measure the polarization angle from 0 to 360 degrees. Since entangled photons have opposite polarization you'd expect an inverted V (red line): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem#/media/File:B...

Instead, you get the blue line. Which is weird, because it is basically a cosine curve, and implies that the photons are able to determine the relative angle of the detectors. The crazy part is that this curve still holds even if those detectors are very far apart and you complete the experiment before any information about the relative angles of the detectors would have time to pass from one detector to the other at the speed of light. This is what implies that a pilot wave would have to move faster than the speed of light.

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#53
post #50
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In short the problem I'm addressing is that the interpretation of the experiment assumes that the system is memoryless, so that the only thing being measured is the interaction with the particles being measured. In the experiments generating the photon pairs from parametric downconversion, for example, does the entire system start up, send 1 photon which gets split into the entangled photon pairs which then go to the…

> the problem I'm addressing is that the interpretation of the experiment assumes that the system is memoryless That's easy to verify by testing the various components--parametric down conversion, prisms, beam splitters, etc.--and showing that if you shine repeated photons on them from the same source, prepared in the same state, they all come out in the same state, or more generally give the same results. All of the…

>if you shine repeated photons on them from the same source, prepared in the same state, they all come out in the same state, or more generally give the same results.

Those kinds of measurements would violate the uncertainty principle. You can't know the complete state going in to the system or the complete state going out. You can run some tests and justify other assumptions based accepted theories. We generally have a good idea what happens when lots of photons pass through these components. We have some ideas of what happens to single photons (in a statistical sense), but the fundamental question we are investigating is whether there even is a local deterministic description of what happens to single photons passing through the component.

> The sources are so inefficient (in terms of converting input energy into photons that are useful for the experiment)... a typical experiment does not use just one photon. It has to take data from many photons

I was aware of that and it's part of my criticism. If the emitter were to only emit useable photons when it's "in the right state", what stops the "right state" for emitting photons to become correlated with the polarizers?

There are a bunch of "unusable" photons bouncing around interacting with everything and transporting global state. Then there are the "usable" photons that get reflected, absorbed and re-emitted by components of the test bed. Any time they interact with anything they modify the state of whatever they touch. What happens to the photons that reflect off of the polarizers and travel back into the emitter?

If a photon bounces off of a mirror it had to have 1. transfered momentum to whatever it hit, and 2. induced a sufficiently strong opposing electromagnetic field to cause the photon to be reflected or re-emitted. While these are tiny effects they are roughly the same order as the effects that caused the photon to be reflected in the first place, and they all require a change in state of the mirror so that momentum is conserved and Maxwell's laws are not violated (my guess would be that this could cause shifts in electron orbital or proton spin orientation, but that's a bit beyond me).

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last part was supposed to be taken with a grain of irony in the spirit of Anton Zeilinger: "We always implicitly assume the freedom of the experimentalist... This fundamental assumption is essential to doing science. If this were not true, then, I suggest, it would make no sense at all to ask nature questions in an experiment, since then nature could determine what our questions are, and that could guide our ques…

What does superdeterminism have to do with the Tao?

There was something formless and perfect

before the universe was born.

It is serene. Empty.

Solitary. Unchanging.

Infinite. Eternally present.

It is the mother of the universe.

For lack of a better name,

I call it the Tao. It flows through all things,

inside and outside, and returns

to the origin of all things. The Tao is great.

The universe is great.

Earth is great.

Man is great.

These are the four great powers. Man follows the earth.

Earth follows the universe.

The universe follows the Tao.

The Tao follows only itself.

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#55
There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born.

It is serene. Empty.

Solitary. Unchanging.

Infinite. Eternally present.

It is the mother of the universe.

For lack of a better name,

I call it the Tao. It flows through all things,

inside and outside, and returns

to the origin of all things. The Tao is great.

The universe is great.

Earth is great.

Man is great.

These are the four great powers. Man follows the earth.

Earth follows the universe.

The universe follows the Tao.

The Tao follows only itself.

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#56
post #22
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment started out good but then stumbled in to some odd critique of philosophy as being incapable of dealing with unknowable things when indeed that seems to be perfectly within the purview of philosophy. Humes Problem of Induction, for instance, is exactly an example of philosophical practice grappling with these unanswerables.

I might have read Hume the wrong way, but for me he was one of the few philosophers who basically said “there’s no way for us to know for sure” which can be approximated to “we don’t know”. My favorite philosopher however remains Heraclitus, had we chosen to go his way we might have had less stupid questions, like “is the cat in the box dead or alive?” and instead we might have straight up came up with the answer “th…

It's terms like "local maxima" that make me realize how useful math knowledge is in conveying easily understandable concepts quickly. I perfectly understood what you meant, but don't think I could convey the concept in less than 10 words without a reference to "local maxima" or being "over-optimized"

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#57
post #8

"The Facts" basically say that among the statements, "Your experiment design isn't predestined by the universe to make it accidentally seem like quantum mechanics is true," "the state of the universe today is all you need to know to predict the state of the universe tomorrow," and "an experiment only has one outcome," there is at least one lie. If the first one is a lie that's superdeterminism, the second one the Cop…

This comment started out good but then stumbled in to some odd critique of philosophy as being incapable of dealing with unknowable things when indeed that seems to be perfectly within the purview of philosophy. Humes Problem of Induction, for instance, is exactly an example of philosophical practice grappling with these unanswerables.

> This comment started out good but then stumbled in to some odd critique of philosophy as being incapable of dealing with unknowable things when indeed that seems to be perfectly within the purview of philosophy.

What does it mean to "deal with" unknowable things in this case? If philosophy is claiming this as their purview, what are they going to do with it? I'd posit philosophers have two options:

1. Say, "I don't know." This is the better option, in my opinion, because it's honest, but scientists already said that, so why do we need philosophers to say the same thing? You can speculate beyond this and posit it from the beginning as "if this thing we don't know is true is true, then it would have this effect". But in other fields this would generally be a very low-value sort of discussion--respectable institutions would not, for example, give a lot of funding to scientific experiments which presuppose unstudied phenomena. You'd study the unstudied phenomenon first and come to conclusions there before moving on to further experiments which presuppose it. Philosophy isn't hurting anything by taking this approach, but it's not adding anything to what science has already done.

2. The second option is, you do what philosophers do all-too-often: simply present your speculation as fact, perhaps hiding a "I don't actually know" in a footnote somewhere so you can point to it when criticized. A common variant of this is teaching ridiculous ideas as equally valid, and then saying you're just teaching history of philosophy when criticized. This is how, for example, you get the categorical imperative taught in schools: it's trivial to come up with counterexamples where everyone behaving a certain way would be horrible, but if you point this out, philosophers will often simply say that they're just teaching Kant because he's historically important. Yet Kantian ethics are taught right next to much more realistic ethical ideas, and students often can't differentiate which ones make any sense and which ones don't. This would be like teaching flat earth-ism in science class, and then saying "it's history of science" when criticized. It's a motte and bailey argument[1] and it's dishonest and harmful to rational thought.

It seems to me that science has taken us as far as it's useful to go with regard to determinism, and philosophy has nothing of value to add on the subject.

Hume's Problem of Induction isn't comparable here. In that case, Hume is asking a question which science hasn't/can't ask, which is somewhat useful. I don't think, however, that Hume really answers the question, and I don't think it would be useful to pretend that we know the answer. In the case of Hume's Problem of Induction, philosophy adds the question but not the answer: with superdeterminism, science has already asked the question, and philosophy can't answer it any better, so philosophy has nothing to contribute.

[1] https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#58
post #51
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does pilot wave theory violate locality -- does it assume that the pilot waves travel faster than light? Yes. The pilot wave at any given point can be affected instantaneously by changes anywhere else in the universe.

But in this regard the pilot wave is not different from the standard Schroedinger’s wavefunction, is it?

Schroedinger’s wavefunction isn't sufficient in a relativistic context

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#59
post #51
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does pilot wave theory violate locality -- does it assume that the pilot waves travel faster than light? Yes. The pilot wave at any given point can be affected instantaneously by changes anywhere else in the universe.

But in this regard the pilot wave is not different from the standard Schroedinger’s wavefunction, is it?

No, it isn't. Both are interpretations of non-relativistic quantum mechanics, and in non-relativistic QM there is no speed of light limit.

Re: The Forgotten Solution: Superdeterminism

#60

In Superdeterminism each time a particle has to collapse, instead of rolling a dice it looks into a secret table of hidden variables that was calculated at the beginning of the universe. The table was calculated carefully so the apparent random choices follow all the laws of quantum mechanics, and the results are equivalent to what you would expect if any of the other interpretations where correct. To calculate this…

What you describe is not superdeterminism, but a replay of a non local theory. The important part happens in the first run when you calculate the table.

What superdeterminism says, is that there exists local and deterministic evaluation rule that will compute consecutive states of the universe, but simply because of the way the rule works experimenters far away end up always choosing the experiments that yield correct results.

Superdeterminism is unpopular because the existence of such evaluation rule seems very unlikely.

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