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Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

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Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#51

Post by jacobush »

aurelwu wrote: post #46
thelittleone wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn’t aware the compute power was low on the 737. Interested if you have some more info? Always thought they would spec a substantially more processing capability than required. I understand economics are a factor but surely it’s not through necessity to save power?

The issue is (from what I understand as layman) that to avoid recertification they kept their old computer hardware from earlier 737 generations, and added more and more tasks to do for it. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/26/business/boeing-737-max-f... (somewhere in the middle: "The issue discovered last week is linked to the data-processing speed of a specific flight control computer chip, according to the two peop…

That's surreal - avionics should run on hard real time. (Whether it's offline scheduled and thus "impossible" to miss a deadline, or if it's "soft" realtime and merely testing ensures this, is not the important part. The important part is that it should never miss a deadline.)

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#52

Post by jve »

ulfw wrote: post #16
Aloha wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plane has no fundamental mechanical flaw, it has a software bug. The only flaw the plane had was being treated as 'just another 737'

It has plenty of uncertifiable components grandfathered in for 50 years, topped with ‘still within range of grandfathering’ pieces of bandaid software on top. It’s fundamental because the whole fundament this rests one isn’t stable and all the adding instability add-ons do not make sense.

Yeah, they should have been using Javascript and React by now /s

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#53

Post by swiley »

alexis_fr wrote: post #34
Aloha wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does a crash on the 737MAX effect operations on 737NG aircraft, or older ones - what suddenly makes it uneconomical?

Because people are made aware that Boeing wasn’t serious with engineering since 2012. And the FAA paid Boeing consultants to inspect Boeing, which by all layman’s definition fall under the terms of “corrupted”. Who wouldn’t pay attention to the little mention in Google Flights with the brand of the plane?

>And the FAA paid Boeing consultants to inspect Boeing, which by all layman’s definition fall under the terms of “corrupted”.

In my experience this is pretty normal for specialized stuff like this, it has nothing to do with corruption.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#54

Post by taneq »

aurelwu wrote: post #4
pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

That sounds like adding a heuristic which works most of the time which is something I can see myself doing to cover some pathfinding issue in a game where it's sufficient if it works 99,9% of the time or when working on a simulation where I can look on the result data afterwards and can see if something looks highly unusual despite the heuristic and improve it iteratively - a luxury you don't get with air planes, at…

Yeah, it’s a nice way of saying “this is a hack”.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#55

Post by jacobush »

alexis_fr wrote: post #25
xvf22 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's one of those fixes where they add up the value of human life if something goes wrong and say 'OK we can handle that, ship it"

I wonder if the human life calculation worked well this time. As far as I see, Boeing lost more than the sum of the human lives; they also lost reputation for everything new they’ve designed in the last 7 years being corrupted, and they also engulfed the reputation of FAA with them, whose agents would fit the definition of “corrupted” by any people’s definition (I know, they are not, they just used agents of Boeing t…

There is so much of U.K. which is incredible and depressing at the same time. Completely pummelled by war, (receiving no aid like West Germany did) they managed to, in 1949, release a Space Age passenger commercial airliner, defining the genre. It looks modern even today.

Yet, fumbled the ball.

They also had a space program, closed it down after their first satellite, which was a success.

Concorde! (With France.)

It goes on an on, I'm sure you have favourite examples.

It's heart wrenching.

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#56

Post by rasz »

pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

its industry standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_firewall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application_firewall

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#57

Post by lrem »

gamedori wrote: post #13
supercanuck wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imagine if your bug has the potential to kill 300 people.

To be fair, if another 150 people die that will be the end of the 737 program - and probably Boeing. 300 more deaths is highly unlikely.

300 people died before Boeing started acknowledging that maybe this wasn't entirely pilot's fault...

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#58

Post by anticristi »

Before upgrading to the latest Ubuntu, I like to wait for a few months until my friends confirm that it's for the better. I guess I would do the same for the MAX.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be one of the first pilots to fly the MAX once the grounding is lifted. Can pilots refuse to fly a specific plane "for a few months, 'cause I have kids waiting for me home"?

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#59

Post by zerogvt »

pcl wrote: post #2

> Because the fault was triggered by specific streams of erroneous flight data, a new software patch can be devised that monitors the computer for that highly unusual condition and prevents movement of the stabilizer when it occurs, one of the people said. Oh man. That sounds like a mess.

When your design is a mess you're probably better off to scrap it altogether and start from a clean piece of paper. "Fixes" to a bad design are adding to the mess. And in this case the mess has already cost hundreds of lives. You cannot "patch" this...

Re: Latest 737 Max Fault That Alarmed Test Pilots Rooted in Software

#60

Post by seymore_12 »

Maakuth wrote: post #41
thelittleone wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn’t aware the compute power was low on the 737. Interested if you have some more info? Always thought they would spec a substantially more processing capability than required. I understand economics are a factor but surely it’s not through necessity to save power?

Here's an article about it. According to this piece, 737 avionics run on a pair of 80286s. https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/06/boeings-software-fix-f...

The should at least get 1202 error..
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