Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

racketracer.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 160 posts

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#51

Post by vlokshin »

Upwork is ruining it for gig economy / freelancing / outsourcing. They create a race to the bottom and prioritize the client over fairness. Fiverr isn't much better.

It's hard for any "we focus on everything" platform to get the specific needs of each vertical (customer + talent side) right. It's why TaskRabbit (focus on everything) never reached the scale of Uber/Lyft (press a button, get a ride).

I'm not deep in the Data Science world, but hopefully there's a platform focused on vetting customers + freelancers and providing a platform for working together easily, fairly, transparently (without the creepiness). Platforms should also decide what kind of work is fine to outsource. Long-term/strategic work the company has to live with for many years (i.e. a core prediction model or fundamental backend arch) shouldn't be outsourced. People who will see the benefits of their work in 5+ years should be the ones working on stuff that'll benefit the company in 5+ years.

I appreciate the mention of Turtle (https://www.turtle.dev/) in this thread already (I'm one of the founders).

For freelancers, Turtle: - Makes sure customers are vetted (just as freelancers are). - Pays for all hours billed (even if customers don't pay). Freelancers are trusted to enter all hours manually. No creepy screenshots. - Provides an easy-to-use platform for task management, chat, video, payments.

We're specifically focused on React, React Native, iOS, and Android dev now. Front-end/mobile is easier to compartmentalize. I'm not sure if that's possible for many forms of data science.

Part-time work is an important part of our economy and will become more important as the world further globalizes (ex: "Remote" now being a hot topic) -- but the infrastructure is seriously lacking. UpWork is a sloppy solution attempt.

I encourage freelancers, customers, and platforms to be honest about what should and shouldn't be outsourced, to make sure there's quality on both sides (great freelancers and shit customers fail), and to make sure there's an easy process to follow (great freelancers, customers, with shit process still fail).

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#52

Post by AJ007 »

msadowski wrote: post #26

I've been using UpWork for over a year now and never had a dispute so far. The author is right in saying that UpWork only guarantees payment when time tracking using their app. Where he is mistaken though is where he says that the app requires camera to be on at all times. There is such an option but personally I'd never go for a project like this. And yes, the app will take the screenshot of the stuff you are workin…

I’ve spent a sizable amount of money hiring people on upwork and never have disputed a payment. If something isn’t being done correctly, the contract gets terminated and that individual never gets any more work from me. Early on it was very difficult to spot potential problems before the contract began. With experience it became much easier.

It is an imperfect system in an environment rife with problems from both employers and works attempting to cheat their way through. Now they are a public company now and have an incentive to squeeze fees from all ends. For that reason, I rarely hire new workers from upwork any more.

Workers or clients who get screwed on the first job will never come back and they will tell everyone else not to use it. In the long run that will add up.

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#53

Post by vlokshin »

atiff wrote: post #24
burlesona wrote: post #10

As a buyer I had a few good experiences finding contractors on Upwork. If “no one should ever use it,” does anyone have a good suggestion for a better place to find good freelance coders for small projects?

I have used Turtle for 2 projects and had an exceptional experience with both. Very well vetted devs, excellent platform and framework for managing them, and human customer service at (currently underpriced IMO) $55/hr. The two apps I’ve used Turtle for: - React site for my business - Ongoing Node integration work at about 10/hr per week. https://www.turtle.ai

Thanks for mentioning Turtle! Really appreciate it.

(1) Great talent, (2) great customers, and (3) an easy to follow process (platform) are critical for making freelancing work. UpWork typically misses at least 2/3.

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#54

Post by sct202 »

pdkl95 wrote: post #28

> the dataset contained ... demographic attributes like race ... to predict actual work performance Regardless of the original intent, that's a request to launder a protected class into an opaque "work performance" metric. Also, while they are not on the unfortunately short list of protected classes, using demographics like age is probably going to create similar discrimination problems. If you want to know about job…

Having race in the dataset itself might not be bad, if there was an expectation that the data scientist would use the data to check if the algorithm was biased in some way, but it seems like the customer was pretty terrible sooo who knows.

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#55

Post by jammygit »

> Their rules state that you must have the Upwork Desktop App on you computer which installs some sort of video malware onto your laptop AND have your webcam visible and on at all times so that the customer success agent can audit that you looked like you were working through the webcam while staring at a screen. How is that not the creepiest shit ever?

Gross

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#56

Post by jammygit »

caiocaiocaio wrote: post #21

I freelanced on Upwork for a bit. It was all the worst aspects of having an abusive boss (the platform itself), and all of the worst aspects of freelancing (unpredictability, getting ripped off by shifty clients). "Creepiest shit ever" is a pretty accurate description of Upwork. If Upwork's attitudes and policies were described to me in the 90s, I would have said it was lame, unrealistic science fiction with an over-…

Any tips for freelancers who are recent engineering grads? I have some portfolio items, but I still can’t claim more than 1 year experience

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#59

Post by krn »

jammygit wrote: post #56
caiocaiocaio wrote: post #21

I freelanced on Upwork for a bit. It was all the worst aspects of having an abusive boss (the platform itself), and all of the worst aspects of freelancing (unpredictability, getting ripped off by shifty clients). "Creepiest shit ever" is a pretty accurate description of Upwork. If Upwork's attitudes and policies were described to me in the 90s, I would have said it was lame, unrealistic science fiction with an over-…

Any tips for freelancers who are recent engineering grads? I have some portfolio items, but I still can’t claim more than 1 year experience

> Any tips for freelancers who are recent engineering grads?

If you have a relevant degree, why not to apply for a remote job position instead? That would help to build your CV, and allow to switch to contracting later on.

Re: Data scientists shouldn't use Upwork

#60

Post by fourstar »

vlokshin wrote: post #51

Upwork is ruining it for gig economy / freelancing / outsourcing. They create a race to the bottom and prioritize the client over fairness. Fiverr isn't much better. It's hard for any "we focus on everything" platform to get the specific needs of each vertical (customer + talent side) right. It's why TaskRabbit (focus on everything) never reached the scale of Uber/Lyft (press a button, get a ride). I'm not deep in th…

Aside from 3/4 of your post being a gigantic ad about your own platform (which if you ever reached the scale of Upwork, I guarantee you’d run into the same issues you mention), how is it really a race to the bottom? You give the price you’re willing to work for, and the buyer agrees to the terms. Just like any other marketplace. I guess Fiverr is a race to the bottom, but that’s because their name and original mission statement (any work for $5) incentives that behavior.

I’ve used Upwork and had good success, but also there have been bad actors. It’s up to the person hiring to do research before they hire, and cut ties by firing if they don’t work out, like pretty much any other workplace. Maybe the vetting process could be better, but Upwork is the best contract to hire marketplace for a variety of work, IMO.

Post reply on HN