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Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

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Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#51
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PGP is a protocol, there is nothing wrong with it. If you want to complain about good PGP based apps that is a entirely different argument (and it think that is what you are arguing). Signal is not a protocol, it is a application. It uses open whisper (or some mutation of it) as its underlying protocol. That being said, you are still relying on trust provided by the signal servers that they properly authenticated you…

Both of those statements are false. There are clear things wrong with the PGP protocol. PGP predates authenticated encryption (let alone modern AEAD ciphers) and the hacks PGP came up with to authenticate ciphertext resulted both in stripping attacks and, indirectly, in the Efail attack from last year. It was also Signal's linear packet based key format that resulted in the GnuPG/SKS attacks. Signal is a protocol; in…

> Signal also doesn't verify identities with phone numbers.

In practice, the only allowed implementation does.

It finds your contacts based on phone number, it allows them to use any keypair, and it allows that key to change at any time. It shows a light grey item in the chat when the key changes, just "your safety numbers have changed" and then you continue chatting like nothing happened.

Even if you were paranoid about checking for the light-grey changed safety number message, there's practically no way to avoid it. There's no built-in way to back-up your keypair and then load it onto another phone, so you can't avoid needing to have your friends accept new keys whenever you get a new phone, or factory-reset your phone.

Maybe you want to fork the open-source client and fix some of these glaring security deficiencies ... nope, they don't want your fork connecting to their central servers. Federation is for silly nerds, no thanks.

Further - recent GPG's crypto implementations are not currently compromised, it's disingenuous to conflate the issues with mail client plugins and keyservers and the old constructions used 15 years ago with recent RSA keypairs.

GPG signatures are used to verify authenticity of debian, ubuntu, and arch linux packages, and these systems do not use keyservers. I've used gpg for a scripted system just for coworkers at my office. (We exchange keys and validate fingerprints in person in the office.) It works. It is not vulnerable to any currently known attacks.

You can't do any of that with Signal! Maybe signal's algorithms are the bees knees and will last for decades but it's just not a useful tool. It allows peer keys to change at any time, and encourages or even requires it!

If anything, I'd expect you to be promoting Keybase, it is "modern" and also does a lot to solve the key distribution and continuity problem ("for real users" you might say), that Signal does not do.

It's very frustrating to see you appeal so much to authority and say "my cryptographer friends and I all just laugh at silly geeks who don't trust Apple and Facebook and OpenWhisperSystems" and really not offer anything that could replace GPG as a tool for us "silly geeks" to use for practical purposes. We could chat with each other and feel good that Moxie's modern crypto is being used and not care when keys change, but that doesn't accomplish anything technically useful for us.

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#52
post #29
post #6

To be clear: this is a subhed from Filippo's email newsletter (which you should subscribe to), relating a news item about the ridiculous SKS/GnuPG-key-handling fiasco from last week; it is not a comprehensive summary of all the ways in which OpenPGP is broken, despite the title.

I'm not subscribing based on this particular bit of rehashing. I can keep up with the "hey just stalk women using Signal, the EFF said so" crowd on HN just fine.

Could you please not be snarky or post unsubstantive comments on HN?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#53
Every two other week, someone writes that openGPG is broken. Guess what they want to say is that if you use PGP in certain ways, it's broken (keyservers, addons like enigmail and so on). But nobody has ever been able to demonstrate that it's broken if you use it correctly. I'll stick with openGPG.

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#54
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not trying to win a popularity contest. If you care about secure messaging, and want to be sure you about who you are talking to -- then you have to use something like pgp. I don't think the number of people using something invalidates a technology's technical merits. All we now have is a bunch of people thinking they are secure to one day have a very rude awakening not if, but when their communications are comp…

The only people who agree with you about the need for PGP in serious secure messaging are members of the PGP cheering section. They're an old and venerable social organization dating back to the pre-HMAC CFB-mode cryptography in PGP itself. I have nothing bad to say about their justified and ancient society other than that they are wrong about everything involving cryptography and that they recommend tools that get p…

If you need ultimate privacy and true end to end encryption , PGP is your tool. You can use over channels you don't trust, e.g. you can easily send PGP messages over Signal or other messenger you can't verify. Only people to discourage use of PGP would be gov reps, as you can choke messenger company to give you a tap to messages, but if someone uses PGP over it, tough luck.

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linus himself has expressed his opinion several times that signing every commit is useless. His posts here explain it a bit: http://git.661346.n2.nabble.com/GPG-signing-for-git-commit-t...

Well yes, signing every commit is useless. He did not however, at any point during that exchange, express the idea that commit signing is a useless activity. And that is what I was referring to. Currently Git seems to be very much integrated with GnuPG and the same goes for GitHub's UX sprinkles over the signing feature. That is what I'd like a decent alternative to. I considered using OpenBSD's signify but it does n…

For the record git signing can also use X.509 certificates but from what I see it's still managed by GnuPG.

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#56
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then there is no need to say OpenPGP is broken. Once you hand off the validation to a 3rd party that does nothing to validate other than a voting system of other people then you are done. You basically put your PGP keys on reddit and decided the key is valid because it made it to the front page. PGP may be many things, but it is not broken, and saying so is blaming the tool for a obviously bad use of it.

It is obviously broken. Your objection is that it isn't comprehensively or irretrievably broken, and while I disagree, I don't have to litigate that, because the narrower sense of the word carries the article. I don't think you can fall back on this being an "obviously bad use of the tool", by the way, since it's a pretty core use of OpenPGP. I don't use keyservers either (or didn't, when I still used PGP, which I ac…

[deleted]

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#57
post #17
post #5

Can we stop saying that pgp is busted and just talk about how the keyservers are the problem with how people decides to exchange keys ? I don't use key servers. So when I get an encrypted message from my friend I have no issues. Allowing a third party such as a key server to play some role in veifiing the authenticity of a key is basically broken from tht start, and has nothing to do with pgp it's self.

Isn't keybase.io trying to solve this?

keybase.io also decided that PGP is terrible and made their own ASCII armor format (that is arguably much better than the horrible abomination that PGP likes to produce).

Basically unless you plug your GPG installation into keybase or do other GPG specific things, it's not using PGP/GPG at all and instead their own format.

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#58
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenPGP is broken in the sense discussed in this newsletter: the keyserver system interacts in a catastrophic way with GnuPG's naive key parsing code, and OpenPGP's deployment at scale depends on keyservers. OpenPGP is broken in other ways! But this is a headline given to a particular current events story about OpenPGP.

Then there is no need to say OpenPGP is broken. Once you hand off the validation to a 3rd party that does nothing to validate other than a voting system of other people then you are done. You basically put your PGP keys on reddit and decided the key is valid because it made it to the front page. PGP may be many things, but it is not broken, and saying so is blaming the tool for a obviously bad use of it.

You seem to be defending PK cryptography instead of OpenPGP.

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it is not a comprehensive summary of all the ways in which OpenPGP is broken Is there a comprehensive summary anywhere?

This article by the same author is perhaps not comprehensive, but a good place to start: https://blog.filippo.io/giving-up-on-long-term-pgp/

Except that the article is only about one particular reason the author finds PGP use uncomfortable. It doesn't deal with any "brokenness of PGP" at all.

Re: Cryptography Dispatches: Hello World, and OpenPGP Is Broken

#60
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not trying to win a popularity contest. If you care about secure messaging, and want to be sure you about who you are talking to -- then you have to use something like pgp. I don't think the number of people using something invalidates a technology's technical merits. All we now have is a bunch of people thinking they are secure to one day have a very rude awakening not if, but when their communications are comp…

The only people who agree with you about the need for PGP in serious secure messaging are members of the PGP cheering section. They're an old and venerable social organization dating back to the pre-HMAC CFB-mode cryptography in PGP itself. I have nothing bad to say about their justified and ancient society other than that they are wrong about everything involving cryptography and that they recommend tools that get p…

> Don't use PGP.

How else do you recommend to independently establish a verifiable identity?

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