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I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

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Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#51

Post by ehnto »

ricardobeat wrote: post #35
xwdv wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong. Software is not so complicated that you have to Google search everything every time. If you are not internalizing new knowledge, you are performing poorly.

> Software is not so complicated What kind of software do you write? Software is one of the most unnecessary complex things humanity has invented.

There is definitely a point in a framework with strong structure where it becomes easier to read the code than google the problem. But if you aren't working on a single codebase for a while you are definitely better off with google on your side.

Some frameworks are written in a way that makes reading the code a pain in the ass too, with generation, magic methods, annotations and other meta coding techniques that turn conventions into code. In those cases even if you have a really niche problem google may still be faster than delving into the dark depths of non-code.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#52

Post by pteraspidomorph »

braythwayt wrote: post #43
jim-jim-jim wrote: post #28

One of the things I don't like about webdev (among many) is that I even have to Google in the first place. Manpages are so much more immediate and accessible. I also think that anything js-adjacent has a real culture problem. Trying to dredge an answer out of a Medium tutorial written in a cloying tone and interspersed with pointless gifs can be such a groan enducing experience. I'm hoping that the community will mat…

Speaking as someone who writes blog posts littered with irrelevant pictures (but never on Medium!), I acknowledge your experience trying to solve a problem based on a blog post. Manpages and documentation are written to be references. Blog posts are written to be tutorials. They have different affordances, and as a result it is very hard to learn how to use something purely from a reference, and very different to sol…

For js and js-adjacent technologies or libraries, there sometimes aren't any references to speak of, unfortunately. You're supposed to divine the information you need from task-oriented texts and code snippets.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#54

Post by pteraspidomorph »

mrmonkeyman wrote: post #47

Google is getting worse though. I sometimes find myself using duck or gasp, bing. Damn SEO BS is killing it.

I suspect Google Search can no longer function as well as it once did without being informed by everything Google knows about you (malicious use of SEO might very well be the reason). You could try fiddling with the privacy settings in your account, especially if you blocked anything (edit: or remove privacy protections from your web browser), and see if that makes it better. I just use DDG for most things these days.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#55

Post by hybridtupel »

I want to question this. Sure there are many things where a google search brings up a better solution than the own spontaneous one (for example path finding algorithms for games). But every problem beyond a trivial ‘getting started’ needs more thought than an algorithm one can copy and paste from google. Even if it’s only the glue code to bring all parts together or transferring the knowledge to the problem trying to solve. Also what others already mentioned about noisy search results: Deciding which of the (hundreds of) possible solutions might bring the desired outcome is an engineering skill. Another thing: When googling the same issue for the third time one should question why he has not memorized it by now (e.g. syntax of commonly used bash commandos etc.). And by internalizing one gets better as engineer every day without relying on google.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#56

Post by klez »

braythwayt wrote: post #43
jim-jim-jim wrote: post #28

One of the things I don't like about webdev (among many) is that I even have to Google in the first place. Manpages are so much more immediate and accessible. I also think that anything js-adjacent has a real culture problem. Trying to dredge an answer out of a Medium tutorial written in a cloying tone and interspersed with pointless gifs can be such a groan enducing experience. I'm hoping that the community will mat…

Speaking as someone who writes blog posts littered with irrelevant pictures (but never on Medium!), I acknowledge your experience trying to solve a problem based on a blog post. Manpages and documentation are written to be references. Blog posts are written to be tutorials. They have different affordances, and as a result it is very hard to learn how to use something purely from a reference, and very different to sol…

There's one particular case where a look at a reference is warranted: when something doesn't behave as expected.

For example, the other day someone asked on stackoverflow why a particular Java class to calculate a difference between two dates was returning a weird result when they asked for the difference in days. Turns out, the class would calculate the difference in years AND months AND days, so if you asked for the difference between June 23 2018 and June 23 2019, the getDays method would return 0.

While this is something you would find in a tutorial on how to calculate a difference between dates in Java, it's much more expedited to just go and read the reference. Works wonders when you get inconsistent results in C for example, since you're probably invoking undefined behavior which is documented in the standard (i.e., the reference).

As a sort of counterpoint for this particular case, the documentation for that class didn't make how the class was meant to be used clear at all. But in the general case I think it applies.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#57

Post by klez »

pteraspidomorph wrote: post #52
braythwayt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who writes blog posts littered with irrelevant pictures (but never on Medium!), I acknowledge your experience trying to solve a problem based on a blog post. Manpages and documentation are written to be references. Blog posts are written to be tutorials. They have different affordances, and as a result it is very hard to learn how to use something purely from a reference, and very different to sol…

For js and js-adjacent technologies or libraries, there sometimes aren't any references to speak of, unfortunately. You're supposed to divine the information you need from task-oriented texts and code snippets.

Or, if you're using an obscure library, by reading the source code.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#58

Post by braythwayt »

pteraspidomorph wrote: post #52
braythwayt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who writes blog posts littered with irrelevant pictures (but never on Medium!), I acknowledge your experience trying to solve a problem based on a blog post. Manpages and documentation are written to be references. Blog posts are written to be tutorials. They have different affordances, and as a result it is very hard to learn how to use something purely from a reference, and very different to sol…

For js and js-adjacent technologies or libraries, there sometimes aren't any references to speak of, unfortunately. You're supposed to divine the information you need from task-oriented texts and code snippets.

Look, Sturgeon's Revelation is that "90% of everything s CRUD." That's true of almost every technology I've encountered in 45 years of programming.

It's especially true when you lower the bar to entry. There's lots of CRUD because anybody can make something. It also means there are lots of things.

If you want well-documented stuff, vote for it by not using things that are poorly documented. Or figure it out and write the documentation. That's how open source works (or doesn't work), and JS/Webdev is not unique in this regard.

Microcomputers were poorly documented way back in the 70s. I'll be there were people complaining how shoddy they were on that basis, but that low barrier to entry led directly to us having this discussion on Hacker News today.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#59

Post by fencepost »

leetrout wrote: post #6
phalangion wrote: post #4

I'm a college professor. I try to teach my students enough that they know what to Google, and that they can understand and use the result. I can't teach nearly everything they might need in the future, but I can give them the foundation.

My reviews from students this semester included this little gem: “He aggressively encourages the use of search engines” Because every time they would ask me a question I would ask them if they tried to Google it first.

Sounds like you need to introduce them to LMGTFY.

Re: I’m not really a good web developer, I'm just good at Googling things

#60

Post by klez »

snazz wrote: post #36
jim-jim-jim wrote: post #28

One of the things I don't like about webdev (among many) is that I even have to Google in the first place. Manpages are so much more immediate and accessible. I also think that anything js-adjacent has a real culture problem. Trying to dredge an answer out of a Medium tutorial written in a cloying tone and interspersed with pointless gifs can be such a groan enducing experience. I'm hoping that the community will mat…

Man pages rarely are enough in my experience. When I encounter an issue with grub-install not writing to my EFI system partition, good luck finding much about it in its very short man page. You’ll have better luck using the ArchWiki, which is like a much better man page, but a simple Google search (or another search engine) will show a forum post with an easy solution as the very first result. Piping six man pages th…

> When I encounter an issue with grub-install not writing to my EFI system partition, good luck finding much about it in its very short man page

This says more about the man pages for grub2 (and grub2 itself, to be honest) EDIT: than about manpages /EDIT.

Compare them with the man pages for grub1. There's a sea of difference.

If you really want to be blown away by a manpage, look for the one for mplayer, which is difficult to find information in for different reasons, i.e., lots of options and lots of options and flags that depend on other flags and options.

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