Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

ndtv.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 146 posts

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#51

Post by rafaelm »

We just went through a couple of outages in Venezuela. The first one was 5 days, the second one 3 days.

After day 2 you start getting worried because everything failed, including the water service (they've been badly maintained and they don't generate their own power) and cell phone service. Lots of already scarce food was lost because people had no way to refrigerate it. At least it made for some nice neighborhood cookouts were everyone cooked and shared their food in the street.

Getting in touch with my parents in another city was like sending messages in a bottle. I sent an SMS, once a day they moved to one of the few places where there was still cell phone service and replied.

Since the main issue that caused the huge outages hasn't been resolved yet, we still get daily power rationing. I'm sitting here in the dark typing, 4 hours so far without power.

Hope the situation in Argentina gets resolved quickly!

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#52

Post by ethbro »

ics wrote: post #39
lugg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA isn't in much of a better position. Large scale transformer blowouts are a nightmare scenario due to how long they take to replace / repair.

I work on one of the densest power grids in the world (NYC) on the team which does emergency transformer replacements and can possibly answer questions about this. From failure to in service for a single transformer in Manhattan is down to 2-3 weeks. That includes design and engineering (my part), permitting, and construction. For fast transformer replacements we rely on two paths, either system spares (identical uni…

Are transformers like these standardized, or are they generally built as one-off customs for the specific site?

(I'm not an EE, so not sure how many variables one needs to contend with in grid-scale transformer design)

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#53

Post by hfkajshfaks »

apthnz wrote: post #26
hfkajshfaks wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't really though. A cascading failure can knock out an entire grid. The Northeast blackout is an example. A line goes out. while (there some lines are still live): The current redistributes itself among neighboring lines. Neighboring lines trip end BlackStart() BlackStart() is fun. Having your plants and grid down is like having a dead battery (plants use ~30% of the electricity they gen on themselves) and no o…

What do you do for a living, and how can I learn more about it? This stuff fascinates me and you've explained it really well.

Lol. I'm a computational material scientist, so take everything w/ a grain of salt.

My dad's a power (line protection) engineer, everything I know is from talking to him.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#54

Post by hfkajshfaks »

6thaccount2 wrote: post #34
apthnz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you do for a living, and how can I learn more about it? This stuff fascinates me and you've explained it really well.

The user is probably a transmission level grid operator. These exist at most decent sized utilities (Entergy, AEP, Duke), although it is possible there is a TOP (transmission operator company) that is not the same as the utility. There are also organizations like the RTO/ISO that also act like air traffic controllers for the grid by keeping it reliable. They also are usually responsible for committing and dispatching…

"The user is probably a transmission level grid operator. "

Close. My dad's a power engineer, specifically grid protection.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#55

Post by hfkajshfaks »

amaterasu wrote: post #31
amelius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have a grid with a large number of nodes, how do you impose which node is running at the correct (reference) frequency and phase? Do the edges of the grid impose a master-slave relationship?

I'm trivialising the problem, but whichever station energises the grid first becomes the reference. An operating grid has what may as well be infinite inertia (it isn't infinite of course), so new stations coming online must match it (or try and change the phase of the grid to match theirs). I visited a power station in Melbourne many years ago, and they have the shattered remains of a turbine and generator that was…

"In the event that there's a phase mismatch, I assume that gets physically transmitted back to the generating device?"

In case of phase mismatch, you have a short circuit and the weakest element along the short gets fried.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#56

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

ics wrote: post #39
lugg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA isn't in much of a better position. Large scale transformer blowouts are a nightmare scenario due to how long they take to replace / repair.

I work on one of the densest power grids in the world (NYC) on the team which does emergency transformer replacements and can possibly answer questions about this. From failure to in service for a single transformer in Manhattan is down to 2-3 weeks. That includes design and engineering (my part), permitting, and construction. For fast transformer replacements we rely on two paths, either system spares (identical uni…

I'm curious how long that process would take if it were do or die. Obviously, permitting would no longer be involved. So the real question is how long is the critical path through engineering->construction?

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#57

Post by 6thaccount2 »

hfkajshfaks wrote: post #54
6thaccount2 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The user is probably a transmission level grid operator. These exist at most decent sized utilities (Entergy, AEP, Duke), although it is possible there is a TOP (transmission operator company) that is not the same as the utility. There are also organizations like the RTO/ISO that also act like air traffic controllers for the grid by keeping it reliable. They also are usually responsible for committing and dispatching…

"The user is probably a transmission level grid operator. " Close. My dad's a power engineer, specifically grid protection.

If he's doing grid protection he's probably in distribution engineering and they would be pretty involved with a black start drill from as in they or the line crews with their boots on the ground as not all of that procedure can be initiated remotely I'd imagine.

The transmission level engineers and operators will call the shots as far as how the high level stuff goes down. In other words they'll issue a directive to get unit x online and then close in breaker b and clear a path to unit y while picking up load at z. The actual process from the end of the people doing that work is likely to be significantly more detailed.

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#58

Post by hfkajshfaks »

6thaccount2 wrote: post #57
hfkajshfaks wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The user is probably a transmission level grid operator. " Close. My dad's a power engineer, specifically grid protection.

If he's doing grid protection he's probably in distribution engineering and they would be pretty involved with a black start drill from as in they or the line crews with their boots on the ground as not all of that procedure can be initiated remotely I'd imagine. The transmission level engineers and operators will call the shots as far as how the high level stuff goes down. In other words they'll issue a directive to…

"If he's doing grid protection he's probably in distribution engineering and they would be pretty involved with a black start drill from as in they or the line crews with their boots on the ground as not all of that procedure can be initiated remotely I'd imagine."

And has a nosy son ;)

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#59

Post by Filligree »

ethbro wrote: post #50
amaterasu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm trivialising the problem, but whichever station energises the grid first becomes the reference. An operating grid has what may as well be infinite inertia (it isn't infinite of course), so new stations coming online must match it (or try and change the phase of the grid to match theirs). I visited a power station in Melbourne many years ago, and they have the shattered remains of a turbine and generator that was…

In the event that there's a phase mismatch, I assume that gets physically transmitted back to the generating device? (Mode subject to type of device) Or am I over-trivializing it? E.g., will an out of phase turbine have a physical resistance against it, as a consequence of the rest of the grid?

Of a sort. If it's a phase mismatch of a few degrees, the generator may attempt to physically rotate to match the phase.

This kills the generator. Also, less amusingly, anyone nearby at the time.

If it's a larger mismatch, then that's more likely to fry the wiring before too much other damage happens. On rare occasions generators get connected while they are (exactly) 180 degrees out of phase; this is a dead short, and its internals will instantly vaporize. The vaporized copper may then proceed to explore the outer limits of the generator's physical integrity.

(Disclaimer, etc: I've only worked with DC generation, AC would be somewhat different especially if it's three-phase.)

Re: All Of Argentina, Uruguay Without Electricity After Massive Outage

#60

Post by mensetmanusman »

rafaelm wrote: post #51

We just went through a couple of outages in Venezuela. The first one was 5 days, the second one 3 days. After day 2 you start getting worried because everything failed, including the water service (they've been badly maintained and they don't generate their own power) and cell phone service. Lots of already scarce food was lost because people had no way to refrigerate it. At least it made for some nice neighborhood c…

That is scary. Our distant family in Venezuela have fled to Chile. Those left behind have died.
Post reply on HN