Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stripe Chargeback Protection

stripe.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 219 posts

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#51

Post by Spooky23 »

jasonkester wrote: post #10

But this isn't the product I want. I don't want to ever fight chargebacks. Because my policy is to never take money from people who don't want to give it to me. I want to automatically refund every chargeback attempt without it affecting my ability to charge credit cards. One of my businesses targets consumers, who have this amazing ability to "forget to cancel" or to have "cancelled 3 months ago, but for some reason…

Keep in mind that making it easy to terminate subscriptions eliminates most of those chargebacks.

It’s one of the reasons that I use Apple whenever possible to handle recurring subscriptions. It takes about 10m to file a dispute with American Express. If figuring out how to cancel a subscription takes longer, I’m cutting my losses at 10m and heading to Amex.com.

Perhaps industry standards around subscription management would help? I think there is a lot of real fraud/unethical behavior exists in this space and legitimate retention management can easily cross the line in the consumers mind as scammy.

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#52

Post by awinder »

wayoutthere wrote: post #30
jasonkester wrote: post #10

But this isn't the product I want. I don't want to ever fight chargebacks. Because my policy is to never take money from people who don't want to give it to me. I want to automatically refund every chargeback attempt without it affecting my ability to charge credit cards. One of my businesses targets consumers, who have this amazing ability to "forget to cancel" or to have "cancelled 3 months ago, but for some reason…

Unless you have an easily visible telephone support number, I’m issuing a chargeback. It simply takes less of my time and idgaf about your business model.

Regardless of the ethics of this approach (I don't even want to touch that part), continuously charging back has a number of ways that can ultimately hurt you:

1. If you run this scheme enough and your credit card company flags your account for excessive chargebacks, you could very well have that card shut down and take a credit hit along with it. 2. More and more companies implement against (effectively) data brokers who are going to tie your chargeback history into a risk score. This very product from Stripe is absolutely going to score risky behavior in part based on past chargeback history.

What's easier & takes less time now is not a guarantee on something being a net good decision, so other people should think twice before going with a scheme like this.

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#53

Post by michaelt »

jasonkester wrote: post #40
peteretep wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to have "cancelled 3 months ago, but for some reason we're still billing them" or to just plain decide that the last six months of charges were fraudulent I've had both of these things happen as a consumer. Coschedule kept billing me for six months after I cancelled (and my accounts administrator didn't know we'd cancelled), and I had Experian in the UK continue billing me for six months after they'd disabled my ac…

I do have the occasional customer claim to have "cancelled 3 months ago" via email. We keep good records of such things, so we know him to be mistaken but I always make a point of apologizing and issuing an immediate refund. I word my "Why did you open a chargeback" mails the same way, and offer to handle things via a refund (and to please close the dispute because it affects our business). But the people who use the…

  But the people who use their credit
  card company instead of email or
  the prominent Cancel button on the
  website don't tend to ever respond
  to those mails.
What's the user experience for someone whose credit card details have been stolen and used to sign up for your service?

Presumably such a person wouldn't have the credentials, the e-mail, or the cancel button?

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#54

Post by seattle_spring »

wayoutthere wrote: post #30
jasonkester wrote: post #10

But this isn't the product I want. I don't want to ever fight chargebacks. Because my policy is to never take money from people who don't want to give it to me. I want to automatically refund every chargeback attempt without it affecting my ability to charge credit cards. One of my businesses targets consumers, who have this amazing ability to "forget to cancel" or to have "cancelled 3 months ago, but for some reason…

Unless you have an easily visible telephone support number, I’m issuing a chargeback. It simply takes less of my time and idgaf about your business model.

What are you people subscribing to that's getting you to this point? Other than a gym, I've never spent more than maybe 2 minutes unsubscribing from anything in my life.

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#55

Post by flibble »

shoo_pl wrote: post #26
flibble wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s exactly what we’d like. 95% of our transactions come from trusted customers which have ~0% chance of a chargeback. We’d like to apply this check and insurance on only the transactions that we are not sure about. Requiring it to be all or nothing makes the feature useless (not cost effective) for merchants with a low fraud rates.

Is it not the point? If stripe allowed you to do that - insure only dangerous transactions - then it could not be 0.4% but rather a few %. The entire point behind insurance is to have enough volume so that the small % when they need to pay up won't affect the business.

I would imagine stripe will always block charges it thinks are likely to be disputed. They aren’t offering carte-blanche to accept transactions that are likely to be fraudulent.

Perhaps it wouldn't work for stripe (to allow the merchant pick and choose which transactions use this service). But if it doesn’t it means that the service won’t be used by clients with low fraud rates.

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#56

Post by dthedev »

zenexer wrote: post #50
eeke wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Card issuers are often able to detect that a transaction is fraudulent before it is disputed, and when this happens, they will send us a notification. These notifications are commonly called TC40s (Visa) or SAFE reports (MasterCard). On average ~60% of early fraud warnings end up being disputed, and most disputes have an early fraud warning (though there’s a wide range depending on your business). If you refund these…

That’s pretty cool. Is this something Stripe customers have to pay an additional fee to access, or is it included? Another question: what’s the percentage of false negatives?

It says on the page, the service costs 0.4% per transaction.

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#57

Post by ddebernardy »

ysavir wrote: post #25
jasonkester wrote: post #10

But this isn't the product I want. I don't want to ever fight chargebacks. Because my policy is to never take money from people who don't want to give it to me. I want to automatically refund every chargeback attempt without it affecting my ability to charge credit cards. One of my businesses targets consumers, who have this amazing ability to "forget to cancel" or to have "cancelled 3 months ago, but for some reason…

Stripe can do refunds through their API, so there's nothing stopping you from building this feature into your own business, on your own site, with your own branding and wording, etc. I would look at Steam's refund flow for inspiration.

That's different from what OP's point is.

Dealing with refund requests is easy. The problem is customers who request chargebacks from their banks instead of requesting refunds from you.

Payment providers usually contest such chargebacks automatically. This ends up costing you a fee. And if you lose the dispute, or issue a refund as a matter of course, these chargebacks contribute to lowering your account's reputation. If this gets out of hands it can put your ability to receive payments in jeopardy.

What would be much more ideal is that, when the bank signals that one of its customers is contesting a charge, the payment provider would simply refund the charge without questions. And, assuming refunds (and chargebacks) are the exception rather than the rule, without the process lowering your score.

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#58

Post by flibble »

shoo_pl wrote: post #26
flibble wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s exactly what we’d like. 95% of our transactions come from trusted customers which have ~0% chance of a chargeback. We’d like to apply this check and insurance on only the transactions that we are not sure about. Requiring it to be all or nothing makes the feature useless (not cost effective) for merchants with a low fraud rates.

Is it not the point? If stripe allowed you to do that - insure only dangerous transactions - then it could not be 0.4% but rather a few %. The entire point behind insurance is to have enough volume so that the small % when they need to pay up won't affect the business.

> If stripe allowed you to do that - insure only dangerous transactions - then it could not be 0.4% but rather a few %.

This would depend on how well stripe can detect fraud.

And if the price is higher to insure individual transactions, that still would be a nice/valuable service to have.

Re: Stripe Chargeback Protection

#60

Post by ahazred8ta »

czzarr wrote: post #34
eeke wrote: post #8

I’m the PM on Chargeback Protection. Startups told us they don’t want to deal with the hassle and unpredictability of chargebacks; that’s why we built this. Happy to answer any questions you have.

0.4% is an extremely steep price for a company like mine doing over $2.5m in annual turnover (saas) which has a very low fraud rate. I actually think currently we pay less than that by doing nothing (meaning letting Paypal handle it, and losing every case). However I'd gladly pay a few thousands per year for it, or be able to pay it on selected transactions (only US for instance).

Use a separate (insured) merchant account for the dodgy transactions?
Post reply on HN