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Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

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Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#51

Same sort of response I'd expect an American Government Diplomat to give if asked about what happened to the 82 men/women/children of the Branch Davidians in Waco, TX. Governments defend their actions, usually.

Janet Reno admitted the storming of the compound was a mistake and regretted the loss of life. She also took full responsibility for the actions. You can also find Waco testimony all over the internet, including hours and hours of footage. That's a far cry from what we see here.

Yet, neither she nor any participants were imprisoned, indicted, or even sacked for their role in it.

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#52
post #40
post #5

I wonder who asked the Tiananmen question to the minister from the audience in Singapore. That guy has some backbone, I like it. They should be challenged on the topic of their political repression more. And not just the typical American channels which Beijing finds easy to dismiss as western propaganda. It's a pretty simple equation. Why would any state have to spend so much explicit effort on making no one mention…

> And not just the typical American channels which Beijing finds easy to dismiss as western propaganda. [...] The near universal obedience seen among the population would seem very foreign to most people in the west. You say that, but mainstream western media is very rarely really critical of the government and especially the core policies of the government (which are the same regardless of whose government it happen…

I wouldn't take Robert Fisk at face value here without some detailed citations of primary sources after he signed onto the "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#53
post #40
post #5

I wonder who asked the Tiananmen question to the minister from the audience in Singapore. That guy has some backbone, I like it. They should be challenged on the topic of their political repression more. And not just the typical American channels which Beijing finds easy to dismiss as western propaganda. It's a pretty simple equation. Why would any state have to spend so much explicit effort on making no one mention…

> And not just the typical American channels which Beijing finds easy to dismiss as western propaganda. [...] The near universal obedience seen among the population would seem very foreign to most people in the west. You say that, but mainstream western media is very rarely really critical of the government and especially the core policies of the government (which are the same regardless of whose government it happen…

The main reason Western media doesn't much criticize the actual policies is because it's "boring" and doesn't generate advertising revenue. It has nothing to do with whether they're allowed to or not.

Instead, they criticize the politicians themselves (particularly Trump, right now). This would never be allowed in China.

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#54
post #50
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, the reason we rarely talk about Kent State anymore is because nobody defends that. What's the point in "criticizing" something when everyone agrees with the critics? Nobody criticizes the geocentric model of the solar system these days either.

Spherical Earth, on the other hand... I have not found an explanation for that epiphenomenon, although I have concluded that it is not meant ironically.

Some of that is a put on, trolling people over something obviously silly. And some is real.

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#55
post #52
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And not just the typical American channels which Beijing finds easy to dismiss as western propaganda. [...] The near universal obedience seen among the population would seem very foreign to most people in the west. You say that, but mainstream western media is very rarely really critical of the government and especially the core policies of the government (which are the same regardless of whose government it happen…

I wouldn't take Robert Fisk at face value here without some detailed citations of primary sources after he signed onto the "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" 9/11 conspiracy theory.

As I mentioned above -- I don't like that the only article I could find of any repute which mentioned the leaked OPCW report was the Independent (the other option was InfoWars). And yes, about half of the article does appear to be at least slightly bullshit. But the leaked report was so ignored by mainstream media there isn't even a mention of it in an opinion piece in more reputable papers like the Guardian.

Aaron Mate did a piece on this[1], who is definitely a more reputable journalist (though not mainstream). I also just found that (of all people) Tucker Carlson mentioned this on his show[2]. Then again, I have many other issues with Tucker Carlson.

[1]: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/05/25/opcw-syria-gas-attack-sta... [2]: https://www.activistpost.com/2019/05/were-being-played-tucke...

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#56
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And not just the typical American channels which Beijing finds easy to dismiss as western propaganda. [...] The near universal obedience seen among the population would seem very foreign to most people in the west. You say that, but mainstream western media is very rarely really critical of the government and especially the core policies of the government (which are the same regardless of whose government it happen…

The main reason Western media doesn't much criticize the actual policies is because it's "boring" and doesn't generate advertising revenue. It has nothing to do with whether they're allowed to or not. Instead, they criticize the politicians themselves (particularly Trump, right now). This would never be allowed in China.

> The main reason Western media doesn't much criticize the actual policies is because it's "boring" and doesn't generate advertising revenue. It has nothing to do with whether they're allowed to or not.

I disagree that it's because the public doesn't care, but you're close that it's related to revenue. The problem isn't government censorship. The problem is corporate bias. News networks are owned by giant conglomerates and it's bad for business to criticise your sponsors. I won't dive into a long tirade on the military industrial complex in the US, but suffice it to say that (just on the topic of war) all of the mainstream news outlets are funded by giant defense contractors. Speaking out against war would be bad for business.

The most scary part is that mainstream media has very significant control over the Overton window, meaning that even if the public distrusts the media the debate can still be framed by them. It's very difficult to discuss anti-establishment politics without sounding like a conspiracy theorist -- even though mainstream media ran a conspiracy theory for almost two years (RussiaGate).

> Instead, they criticize the politicians themselves (particularly Trump, right now).

Almost all of the criticisms of Trump resort to one of three things:

1. Personal criticisms such as sex scandals, how much he plays golf, etc. 2. Criticisms of being too soft on Russia (even though the exact opposite is true in terms of US policy -- with most US actions being significantly against Russian interests and more hawkish than the days of Obama and Bush). 3. Minor political disagreements or scuffles.

None of these are actually serious issues, and are just spending time getting the public outraged over nonsense. The newly-found discussions of impeachment are a valuable discussion to have, but the past two years have been completely disconnected from reality.

How long did news networks run stories that Trump vetoed a bill passed in Congress to end the US war in Yemen (a war that was already illegal)[1]? Less than a few days, and then it was full steam ahead on other less important topics. The US has been committing war-crimes for decades and I think it's insane to argue that the public wouldn't care about it if they were being told about it.

When the media does talk about policies, they have insanely corporate biases. Every discussion of medicare-for-all in the US is dominated by discussions of "how much will it cost" (it will be cheaper overall), "what about people who love their health insurance provider" (those people don't exist -- people love their doctors, not their health insurance), "it cannot work in the US" (even though it works in rest of the developed world, and the US already has medicare), and so on. No meaningful discussion and reporting of the massive problems with the current health insurance industry and how it must be reformed, or how the US's healthcare system is among the worst in the developed world.

[1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/04/17/trumps-...

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#57
post #31

I feel like China has learned from Perestroika and made a conscious choice not to go down that path, but instead focus on economic freedoms rather than political. To offer some perspective: the 90's were a dark time in Russia. The Soviet Union disintegrated, taking large chunks of deliberately decentralized economy with it, there was hunger, hyperinflation, deficit of basic goods (same shit you're seeing in Venezuela…

Were you still a child/teenager during the 90s while living in Russia? Or were you already an adult and working at that point?

It’s always very interesting to hear from someone who’s directly lived through experience. Thanks for offering your perspective.

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#58
post #31

I feel like China has learned from Perestroika and made a conscious choice not to go down that path, but instead focus on economic freedoms rather than political. To offer some perspective: the 90's were a dark time in Russia. The Soviet Union disintegrated, taking large chunks of deliberately decentralized economy with it, there was hunger, hyperinflation, deficit of basic goods (same shit you're seeing in Venezuela…

Were you still a child/teenager during the 90s while living in Russia? Or were you already an adult and working at that point? It’s always very interesting to hear from someone who’s directly lived through experience. Thanks for offering your perspective.

I was a student for most of the 90s (6 year MSc). But I was also working part-time. So I guess a little of both. Still remember it all pretty vividly 20+ years later. Not having any money to buy food for weeks on end especially (subsisted on eggs, potatoes, and pickles). I also remember converting all my ruble denominated savings into dollars on a whim 2 weeks before the 1998 default. That was a major coup for me: before the default USD/RUR was about 6, after - about 21, and most prices were revised upward correspondingly. Imagine losing 2/3rds of your money in the span of a few days for no fault of your own, just because the oligarchs are picking the rotting corpse of your country clean and can't be bothered to pay taxes (some of which would normally go to service the debts).

People still remember all of this. That's why Putin is so popular: he is widely credited (and rightly so) with pulling Russia from the brink of disintegration. I always voted for anyone but Putin, though: can't stand vote rigging, and he rigs every single election, even though he doesn't need to: he'd be elected by quite a margin anyway.

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#59
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither were blocked.

Well then it looks like you can use outline to read things that are being censored.

For now, at least. The Chinese firewall may eventually whack that mole, too.

Re: Tiananmen Square: China minister defends 1989 crackdown

#60
post #50
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, the reason we rarely talk about Kent State anymore is because nobody defends that. What's the point in "criticizing" something when everyone agrees with the critics? Nobody criticizes the geocentric model of the solar system these days either.

Spherical Earth, on the other hand... I have not found an explanation for that epiphenomenon, although I have concluded that it is not meant ironically.

Don't understand how people come to the conclusion that the earth is circular.
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