Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#51

Post by astine » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #45

astine wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It's stealing from the future, locking up prime real estate to be a monument to the past. " Stealing what from the future? Are you assuming that people from the future would rather have a shopping mall or something on the Île de la Cité rather than a monument to the past? Personally, I'm rather grateful that people in the past have taken the time to preserve buildings from their time and earlier so I and others in…

Building a mall would be more in keeping with the original intent. Remember, Notre Dame is on prime Paris real estate because the church served a critical role in peoples' everyday lives back then. Today, Parisians are increasingly irreligious, so it no longer serves that purpose. So that prime land was dedicated to an important civic institution. Now, it's dedicated to what is primarily a tourist attraction.

"Stealing the land. If we built a shopping moll there, future generations could build something significant to their society."

They can still do that. Not tearing down a building today does not prevent future generations from doing so if need be. The only choice today that steals from the future is razing the structure because that's the one thing that cannot be undone.

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#52

Post by opwieurposiu » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

chadash wrote: post #31

A lot of the comments here are assuming that the author is proposing something that he is not (perhaps making this assumption from reading the title not the article itself). So I'll summarize. He's arguing that rebuilding the internal structure of the roof with wood beams would inevitably lead to another fire. Concrete and steel would last longer and be more structurally stable and resilient to fires. What he's not a…

The article also seems unclear about the cause of the fire. Arson is not currently suspected. There are recent arson attacks on other churches in france which caused some confusion with this fire.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/frances-other-burning-c...

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#53

Post by magduf » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #45

astine wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It's stealing from the future, locking up prime real estate to be a monument to the past. " Stealing what from the future? Are you assuming that people from the future would rather have a shopping mall or something on the Île de la Cité rather than a monument to the past? Personally, I'm rather grateful that people in the past have taken the time to preserve buildings from their time and earlier so I and others in…

Building a mall would be more in keeping with the original intent. Remember, Notre Dame is on prime Paris real estate because the church served a critical role in peoples' everyday lives back then. Today, Parisians are increasingly irreligious, so it no longer serves that purpose. So that prime land was dedicated to an important civic institution. Now, it's dedicated to what is primarily a tourist attraction.

You want Paris to become like Detroit? Those tourists pump an enormous amount of money into the local economy and help keep the city what it is. No one ever travels to cities like Detroit or Buffalo because there's nothing there worth visiting, and the local economies are terrible.

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#54

Post by anextomp » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

CydeWeys wrote: post #41

wazoox wrote: post #22

The question is moot. France signed the Venice Convention in the 70s, that forbids any significant modification of protected monuments. Therefore the roof must be reconstructed absolutely identically from a visual point of view, using techniques as similar as possible as the previous one. Rebuilding in metal or concrete like Reims, Nantes etc. couldn't be done nowadays. Building a timber structure like the one that b…

I'm not really seeing how something signed in the 70s is going to prevent France from repairing a devastated building, that is French to the core and located in the French capital, however they see fit. If they come out and say it makes sense to use non-flammable materials for the reconstruction (which would make sense), who in the world is going to stop them exactly? Notre Dame was already damaged by the fire (which…

The people with the power to change the treaty don't materially care about the restoration and the people in change of the restoration don't have the power to change the treaty.

Without some huge effort to range awareness in favour of changing the Notre Dame for the better, the treaty will remain and those in charge of the repairs will have no say in how they go ahead.

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#55

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #43

chadash wrote: post #31

A lot of the comments here are assuming that the author is proposing something that he is not (perhaps making this assumption from reading the title not the article itself). So I'll summarize. He's arguing that rebuilding the internal structure of the roof with wood beams would inevitably lead to another fire. Concrete and steel would last longer and be more structurally stable and resilient to fires. What he's not a…

Thank you for writing that, totally agree. One thing is unclear to me, though: > He's arguing that we should install glass more closely resembling the original medieval glass, which would allow more light into the structure. I did a little research, and as far as I can tell, the windows were originally stained glass, then many were replaced with clear glass in the 17-18th century, then re-replaced with stained glass…

[deleted]

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#56

Post by [deleted] » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #49

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always like when people ignore the comment they are replying to... If you want to restore the original style then we should remove the gargoyles, as mentioned, but also other elements that were added. Even the spire was not a 'replica' as it was taller than the original. There is no point seeking to restore "as it originally was" for an 800 years old building. Certainly not using any lead anymore would be welcome.…

I was not ignoring you. My point is the 19th century changes were made in a spirit of restoring the church to its original design. The current gargoyles may have been carved in the 19th century but gargoyles were placed on cathedrals starting in the 13th century and certainly fit well with the medieval gothic style. The original gargoyles of Notre dame, according to Wikipedia, were removed in 1726 so again this is an…

[deleted]

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#57

Post by magduf » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

nnq wrote: post #42

Am I the only one actively disliking this light fetish? Dunno about others, but the semi-darkness was crucial to the awe and spiritual depth & mystery that NDC made me feel when visiting it. Otoh it's probably in line with over-lighting that I saw common at least in Paris lately - restaurants and caffees used so powerful lights that I wanted to wear sunshades inside. I mean... wtf?! I get it that LED light allow you…

>Even phones and laptop screens are luminous now that you need to keep them at 50% or smth if you're not using them while sunbathing on the beach.

This is for good reason: so you can see them in daylight. The difference between nighttime and daytime illumination is orders of magnitude; we don't perceive it that way because our eyes are adapted to adjust to lighting levels that are orders of magnitude different. These devices need very bright screens if we want to see them when we're walking around outside. They're supposed to have auto-dimming functions so they turn down when you're inside or it's nighttime, but unfortunately many devices seem to have lousy auto-dimming algorithms.

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#58

Post by NotPaidToPost » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:52 PM UTC

javagram wrote: post #49

NotPaidToPost wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always like when people ignore the comment they are replying to... If you want to restore the original style then we should remove the gargoyles, as mentioned, but also other elements that were added. Even the spire was not a 'replica' as it was taller than the original. There is no point seeking to restore "as it originally was" for an 800 years old building. Certainly not using any lead anymore would be welcome.…

I was not ignoring you. My point is the 19th century changes were made in a spirit of restoring the church to its original design. The current gargoyles may have been carved in the 19th century but gargoyles were placed on cathedrals starting in the 13th century and certainly fit well with the medieval gothic style. The original gargoyles of Notre dame, according to Wikipedia, were removed in 1726 so again this is an…

This reminds me the outcry that followed the 'bolting on' of visible concrete, steel, and transparent glass in the middle of the Louvres... Which is now one of the most striking and famous view of the city.

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#59

Post by manifestsilence » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

chadash wrote: post #31

A lot of the comments here are assuming that the author is proposing something that he is not (perhaps making this assumption from reading the title not the article itself). So I'll summarize. He's arguing that rebuilding the internal structure of the roof with wood beams would inevitably lead to another fire. Concrete and steel would last longer and be more structurally stable and resilient to fires. What he's not a…

Thanks for the clarification. Skimming through headlines, this one conjured up Ayn Rand-ian anti-cathedral sentiments. "The cathedral rose over it in lace splendor, a fragile defense against two great enemies: light and air."

Re: Let’s fix up Notre Dame with concrete and steel, but let the sun shine into it

#60

Post by jlg23 » Fri, May 31, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #22

The question is moot. France signed the Venice Convention in the 70s, that forbids any significant modification of protected monuments. Therefore the roof must be reconstructed absolutely identically from a visual point of view, using techniques as similar as possible as the previous one. Rebuilding in metal or concrete like Reims, Nantes etc. couldn't be done nowadays. Building a timber structure like the one that b…

> France signed the Venice Convention in the 70s

Not only that, according to a friend the French laws about replacements are so harsh, that he:

* would have to use handmade wallpapers

* was not allowed to replace a very thin outer door with a slightly thicker one so that he could have steel bars run in the door to provide adequate security (he would not have been allowed to drill the holes the bars lock into on the other side of the frame either)

He sold his house after realizing that there is no way around these rules (and he worked in French bureaucracy all his life).

PS: IIRC it was a small 17th century hôtel particulier in a town some hours from Paris, off the tourist track.