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California is cracking down on the gig economy

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Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#51
post #2

Increasing benefits and worker protections also increases the cost of hiring employees. This is widely understood. In countries where employees have extensive benefits and protections like France, employers are very picky about which employees they hire because it will be difficult or expensive to fire them if they turn out to be poor workers. Hence, and unemployment rate over twice that of the US. The ease of enteri…

Take the wider view. Let's posit as a hypothetical that 1% of the workforce is deplorably bad at the notion of being employed (let's define that as: It'll take them 100s+ of trying things until they find a job where the employer is better off employing them vs. not employing them). Let's say a further 1% is rated as 'quite bad' (defined as: More than half the jobs they would on paper qualify for, they'd do such a bad…

> Let's posit as a hypothetical that 1% of the workforce is deplorably bad at the notion of being employed (let's define that as: It'll take them 100s+ of trying things until they find a job where the employer is better off employing them vs. not employing them). Let's say a further 1% is rated as 'quite bad' (defined as: More than half the jobs they would on paper qualify for, they'd do such a bad job the employer is better off not employing them).

This is an overly coarse grained depiction of the situation. An individual is not blanket "bad employee" who can't be productive. I'm a good software developer, but if you hired me to be a concert pianist I'd suck at it. I'd say probably 5-10% of employees end up being under productive or non-productive at their jobs. This is consistent with the performance review scores I've seen.

When firing an employee is easy, employers are much more willing to hire because they know that they will be able to terminate employees that are not productive. When firing an employee is hard, employers will be reluctant to hire employees and will only hire the ones that they are confident will do well. This usually makes it very hard to get started in an industry, because companies are leery of workers without experience.

> Why employ these people? In western europe the common song and dance routine is a calvinistic 'because work is good for you, otherwise they'd be lazy gits'... at which point apparently the argument becomes: The employers of the notion must carry the burden of dealing with these folks, for the good of society.

This doesn't seem to be the case seeing as how most of Western Europe has a higher unemployment rate than the US.

> In the US and a lot of right wing euro parties the sentiment is more: Well, they are lazy! I don't wanna pay taxes to enable these morons. Except that is an economic falsehood; they drag society down no matter what you do. I guess unless you're willing to take the moral position of just casually killing them in a way that is really cheap and easy (and thus, probably quite imprecise – few to no people are morally okay with this I assume), you just have to grin and bear it. Yeah, they drag a bit. It's fine; the economy can easily accomodate them.

You're seriously saying that if we don't employ people who are incapable of doing their jobs, then the only other option is summary execution? This is absurd to the point that I can only assume this is a bad joke.

The much more likely approach is to let them continue to be unemployed and search for a job that they are capable of doing.

> The point is: A system that does let such people be employed here and there for a while is not inherently better than one that does not, and, 0% unemployment is a crazy goal.

0% unemployment is a crazy goal and I don't know why you seem to think that making it harder or easier to fire employees will ever bring it closer to zero. Even in fields where the number of job openings vastly exceed the available positions, unemployment is still usually at 1-2%.

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://data.oecd.org/chart/5A9X is the harmonized unemployment rate for Germany and the USA, which they define as: "Harmonised unemployment rates define the unemployed as people of working age who are without work, are available for work, and have taken specific steps to find work. The uniform application of this definition results in estimates of unemployment rates that are more internationally comparable than esti…

I'm just reporting what the German statistical office reports ( https://m.investing.com/economic-calendar/german-unemploymen... ). Besides, harmonized or not, doesn't explain the economic weakness in Germany over the past decade compared to the US.

What's the point of the economic strength of the US, if the results of that strength disproportionately go to the so-called elites and building war machines? Healthcare, homelessness, massive inequality are perennial awkward topics for an allegedly rich country like the US.

If anything, the US should scale back profits and rebuild its social supports structures, the same structures which were torn down in the name of profit.

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#53

I'm coming to the view that gig workers are neither employees nor independent contractors. Employees don't get to unilaterally set their own hours, and contractors don't get prices unilaterally dictated to them or barred from their profession if their rating falls too low. All this regulatory squabbling is arguing over whether a square peg fits a round hole or fits a triangular hole. We need a third classification fo…

> We need a third classification for gig workers that affords them some protections while preserving the economic viability of ridesharing companies. Disregarding any problems we might have with specific companies, I think ridesharing companies are a benefit to consumers. How about the ridesharing companies should provide - by law - for food and shelter (paid for with a pay cut from the gigs) until the employee/contr…

"How about the ridesharing companies should provide - by law - for food and shelter "

so basically making gig workers even more dependent on the company?

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#54

Just charge drivers $1/day to use the platform and now they aren't contractors, they're customers.

Even better, categorize your app as a game. Now they're players.

Pokémon Go players don't even get paid, yet they drive from pokestop to pokestop just to earn virtual items.

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> This seems like political posturing that's going to hurt the majority of employees if it passes. That reminds me of the posturing when they passed those child labor laws. And what did we get? A bunch of unemployed children.

Surely you're not arguing that adults have the same degree of agency and consent as children.

this is exactly what some people are arguing about. they treat other people like children, and then wonder why they aren't getting votes.

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#56
post #2

Increasing benefits and worker protections also increases the cost of hiring employees. This is widely understood. In countries where employees have extensive benefits and protections like France, employers are very picky about which employees they hire because it will be difficult or expensive to fire them if they turn out to be poor workers. Hence, and unemployment rate over twice that of the US. The ease of enteri…

>> This seems like political posturing that's going to hurt the majority of employees if it passes. That reminds me of the posturing when they passed those child labor laws. And what did we get? A bunch of unemployed children.

Categorizing contract workers as employees and forbidding or limiting child labor are vastly different situations. I can only assume that this is some failed attempt at a joke.

Child labor laws prevented parents from sacrificing their children' educations to use them for immediate economic gain. This is not at all related to extending employee benefits to contract workers that set their own hours.

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#57
post #2

Increasing benefits and worker protections also increases the cost of hiring employees. This is widely understood. In countries where employees have extensive benefits and protections like France, employers are very picky about which employees they hire because it will be difficult or expensive to fire them if they turn out to be poor workers. Hence, and unemployment rate over twice that of the US. The ease of enteri…

This seems like political posturing that's going to hurt the majority of employees if it passes. Will it hurt them more than making roughly minimum wage or less? https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-is-how-much-uber-driv... Marketwatch is estimating under $11/hr with no insurance, no retirement benefits, etc. Even In-n-Out and Starbucks pay more, offer better benefits (even for part timers), and generally offer fle…

So why don't they go work there then? Come back when you have an answer.

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#58
post #19

While I am sympathetic to Uber and Lyft drivers and other gig economy workers, I am wondering if anyone has the done the calculus on job losses vs. making something. And whether making something is better than being jobless. I met a Uber driver the other day who drives 5000 miles per month. Clearly that is close to exploitation. But if Uber is forced to pay drivers 100% more surely there will be fewer drivers. And ma…

> I met a Uber driver the other day who drives 5000 miles per month. Clearly that is close to exploitation. Averaging 30 miles an hour, that's 166 hours a month.

How did you know 30mph is the right average speed? For instance, average driving speed in Manhattan in 2016 was 7.1mph.

Your working time calculation also needs to consider loading and unloading passengers, gaps between fares, time for comfort breaks, refueling, vehicle cleaning and maintenance, etc.

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#59
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm just reporting what the German statistical office reports ( https://m.investing.com/economic-calendar/german-unemploymen... ). Besides, harmonized or not, doesn't explain the economic weakness in Germany over the past decade compared to the US.

What's the point of the economic strength of the US, if the results of that strength disproportionately go to the so-called elites and building war machines? Healthcare, homelessness, massive inequality are perennial awkward topics for an allegedly rich country like the US. If anything, the US should scale back profits and rebuild its social supports structures, the same structures which were torn down in the name of…

I was speaking to relative economic strength, It's not that I think the US employment rate means much either: without government debt financing deficits, US gdp would be in contraction (like nearly other OECD economy).

>If anything, the US should scale back profits and rebuild its social supports structures, the same structures which were torn down in the name of profit.

All of this sounds like more debt, which if we learned (we haven't) anything from 2008, will not solve the problems, just exacerbate it more when it blows up (again).

Re: California is cracking down on the gig economy

#60
post #49

I'm coming to the view that gig workers are neither employees nor independent contractors. Employees don't get to unilaterally set their own hours, and contractors don't get prices unilaterally dictated to them or barred from their profession if their rating falls too low. All this regulatory squabbling is arguing over whether a square peg fits a round hole or fits a triangular hole. We need a third classification fo…

> Disregarding any problems we might have with specific companies, I think ridesharing companies are a benefit to consumers. I am all for ridesharing. But Uber and Lyft, as an example, has nothing to do with that concept. It is not like your Uber driver was coincidentally going to the exact place that you were going. Ridesharing, as understood before the gig economy, was someone in the company realizing that there we…

I thought that was called carpooling.
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