Live data from Hacker News

Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

doc.cat-v.org

51–60 of 80 posts

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#51
post #7

Virtualization. Capabilities. Kernel-bypass networking. Static code analysis. Verified-pointer microarchitectures. Coverage-guided fuzzing. Systems software research has come a long way since 2000.

Virtualization and static code analysis existed before 2000. Granted - the tooling improved.

Sure. And that's what most research is: Take an existing idea and make it better.

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#52
post #17
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the number one thing that could have gotten better in the last 19 years but didn't: security. In 2000, people mostly still used Windows 9x. A single-user system with no sandboxing and no built-in firewall.

He's talking about research, so you have to look at the state of the art, not what the masses were still using. In 2000 I used FreeBSD, which was pretty good. It had jails [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD_jail ] by then, which a reasonable person might still prefer to modern Linux containers.

We had jails, but we didn't have virtualized network stacks, pluggable TCP congestion frameworks, or bhyve.

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#53
post #39
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtualization: See VMS (1977) Kernel-bypass networking: See microkernels (1967) Need I go on?

Yes, please do demonstrate an ancient source of coverage-guided fuzzing, I would be very interested in that.

I think you could make a point that it would be a practical implementation of the "Infinite Monkey Theorem" made practical by extension of Moore's law.. I think the original author expresses disappointment in the lack of fundamental new developments in system research and he has a point. Then again the wheel hasn't changed much in recent history either..

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#54
post #19
post #2

The last 19 years of systems software research have not refuted Rob's thesis. Industry has made incremental progress, academia has written papers but not built much that people want to use. Despite massive increases in graphics processing power, desktop UIs are still about the same as in 2000, just with more shininess. And the number one thing that could have gotten better in the last 19 years but didn't: security.

> academia has written papers but not built much that people want to use. Does "started in academia" not count? Because that'd give you easy counter-examples, e.g. Scala, Spark.

LLVM is a huge one.

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#55
post #17
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And the number one thing that could have gotten better in the last 19 years but didn't: security. In 2000, people mostly still used Windows 9x. A single-user system with no sandboxing and no built-in firewall.

He's talking about research, so you have to look at the state of the art, not what the masses were still using. In 2000 I used FreeBSD, which was pretty good. It had jails [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeBSD_jail ] by then, which a reasonable person might still prefer to modern Linux containers.

Windows 2000 also existed at that time, was widely used, and was basically straight out of the future. It had:

NTFS 3.0 with file encryption support

Logical disk management for dynamic disks & expansion of a logical partition over multiple physical disks. Without a reformat.

Distributed file systems & hierarchical storage management.

MMC with group policy control, active directory, centralized event viewer for OS & application events, and system service management

Speaking of which, system services were a thing that actually existed and were managed (systemd fighting still continues, so Linux still hasn't "caught up" on this)

Plug & Play ACPI support (technically windows 98 was the first to support this but it was so broken it was a joke - Linux lagged by a few years and didn't really support it until 2.6).

User-mode print drivers

Network QoS

time service with SNTP support

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Virtualization and static code analysis existed before 2000. Granted - the tooling improved.

Sure. And that's what most research is: Take an existing idea and make it better.

Or a known phenomenon and explaining it.

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#57

This article predates it, but OS X (particularly after it mutated into iOS) represents probably the biggest source of systems innovation in the two decades after this article. Apple is very secretive, so their systems research often isn’t known outside the company until it’s actually going into a product. OS X was modern for its time, but where they’ve really pushed the envelope is with iOS. They can simply move fast…

At launch Android was way more innovative at a systems level with per-application UID sand-boxing & a permission system and system-integration capabilities (broadcasts, services, intents, etc...)

iOS was innovative at a UI/UX level, definitely. But I can't really think of anything they did at a systems level that was at all innovative?

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#58
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have pretty great isolation between programs on iOS and Android.

I hear you, but security wise this point is countered by the fact that every (n-1) iOS operating system has a public lpe exploit available. A user might not be able to jailbreak their idevice, but a hacker can.

I’m not sure what you mean. How would an attacker jailbreak my iPhone 7?

Re: Systems Software Research is Irrelevant (2000)

#59

I would argue that systems research has been incredibly relevant. First consider programming languages. Even though languages such as Java, C++, C# are all widely used, they are much different languages than they were in the early 2000’s. You can see the influences of academic research especially from the functional languages (monads) on these languages. Also, Rust is an exciting new language that is enabled by the s…

> The late 90’s and early 2000’s were a weird time where the hardware was improving so fast and taking software along for a free ride that a lot of software was good enough.

Would you say that wasn’t the case during the past 20 years (2000-2019)? Or do you consider all that period to be “early 2000’s”?

Post reply on HN