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China’s new ‘social credit system’

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Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#51

Post by Razengan »

rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

> Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them

Which they do without the threat of a “social credit system.”

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#52

Post by vgoh1 »

rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

The Chinese credit system is a relationship of those in power controlling those without power. The relationship has no checks and balances, and therefore will only become more controlling over time. This is just day 1, what do you think day 10,000 will look like? You are confusing that with relationships among peers, this is not the same at all.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#53

Post by JumpCrisscross »

wincy wrote: post #50
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These virtuous behaviors are a better way to live and make life better for everyone This sidesteps that under the umbrella of “virtuous behaviours” are those that support the ruling party. Under the umbrella of undesirable behaviours is dissent of any stripe. That’s what makes this dystopian in a way e.g. London’s CCTV system is not.

Unless you really upset the ruling elite, like Julian Assange, in which case the west will make your life a living hell.

Assange published, with zero redaction, military assets. The journalists who wrote about it and activists who protested surrounding it were not jailed. They didn’t have their credit scores dinged. They were allowed to go about their peaceful dissent.

Cleaner example would have been Snowden, who peacefully dissented and responsibly disclosed his leaks. But even then, the comparison would be wrong. Snowden is a single case, and one which one can freely argue shines poorly on American values. The social credit experiments point to Beijing’s ambitions to scale the threat Snowden saw realised against him nationally and explicitly.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#54

Post by quadcore »

rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

Culture matters.

So what you're saying is that humans have no rights. If humans have rights, then there is a point where culture doesn't matter.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#55

Post by corodra »

anvandare wrote: post #18
pawelmurias wrote: post #9

Are the rules of what costs you social credit score available?

Probably (although it makes more sense for them to be vague) but you shouldn't really care about the paper rules anyway, instead here are the real rules: Rule One: there are no rules. Rule Two: you must pretend Rule One does not exist. Instead pretend that there is a set of clear, objective, and just rules that apply to everyone equally and fairly; that it is possible to live without ever violating a rule; that no on…

You forgot some people are going to be more equal than others.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#56

Post by TeMPOraL »

icebraining wrote: post #39
adinobro wrote: post #29

China currently doesn't have a "credit score" like most of the rest of the world. They also don't have a national police database so this is their attempt to do both at once. If you look at the information these two things seem to make roughly 90% off your score. Everything else is basically an experiment. Each district is doing it differently to find out what works the best and that will then be merged into what the…

Much, if not most, of the rest of the world doesn't have a credit score either.

You mean the US-style credit score, right? Because I can't imagine a country that has banks giving out loans without at least credit worthiness analyses that are essentially credit scores, but lazily computed. And lazily-computed credit score is still credit score. E.g. in Poland, we don't have "credit score", except that the bank will happily calculate it for itself whenever you ask for a loan, which means we have to keep our interactions with credits and debts in mind, the same way Americans do.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#57

Post by village-idiot »

raxxorrax wrote: post #36
rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

I live in a very clean city and we don't need social credit systems to handle litter. The jump so many people take to encourage strong enforcement for bagatelles is astonishing. Greece also has a lot of bribes but if you would know anything about the culture, you probably wouldn't conclude that you have to liberate the country. Well, I at least hope so... You can use the stick of course, but loosing that, all benefit…

The Greeks are a fascinating case of the utter break down of social trust. Greeks no longer trust each other, and the level of corruption and tax evasion is mind boggling.

I think it’s a false equivalence to compare the belief that a country needs something fixed and saying that it needs to be “liberated” with the force of arms.

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#58

Post by adinobro »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #43
adinobro wrote: post #29

China currently doesn't have a "credit score" like most of the rest of the world. They also don't have a national police database so this is their attempt to do both at once. If you look at the information these two things seem to make roughly 90% off your score. Everything else is basically an experiment. Each district is doing it differently to find out what works the best and that will then be merged into what the…

> They also don't have a national police database so this is their attempt to do both at once China needs a national credit score. And China needs a national police database. What it doesn’t need is both tied together with a political component layered on top. (I think there is a good chance these experiments will backfire. We tried isolating felons amongst themselves in the United States. It just led to better-netwo…

I'm still on the fence. A lot of the time when you run a credit score you also run a police check. Not always but often enough. I expect most of the other stuff will be too much effort to be kept in the score at a national level unless it is a token amount.

China doesn't have the same incarceration rate that the US has (I don't think anyone does). I also don't know how long the score will be impacted by a criminal history.

I'm not saying it will work. I'm just saying that because other countries have done it one way does not mean that every other way of doing it is automatically wrong.

As an expat here my current score is "B" but I'll move up to an "A" next year. I don't know if that score means anything...

Re: China’s new ‘social credit system’

#59

Post by inflatableDodo »

rayiner wrote: post #31

The implementation is somewhat disconcerting, but I’m not sure the underlying policy isn’t a good idea. Culture matters. When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block), or carrying their litter with them, versus what I see in say New York, I’m astounded. Similarly for the fact that nobody has ever asked me for a bribe in the US, v…

>When I go to Tokyo and see people walking a couple of blocks to cross the street (there isn’t necessarily a cross walk on every block)

I think that jaywalking laws are nuts, but then again I am from the UK where we get indoctrinated with a thing called 'the green cross code' in primary school, that tells us how to cross a road safely.

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