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European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

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Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#51

Post by maaaats »

sweeeety wrote: post #43
maaaats wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a common theme here on HN when it comes to worker's rights and unions. Being a one-percenter where companies bend over backwards to cater to you, it's easy to dismiss these things.

Not my experience in Europe though. My last two employers here constantly over promised (e.g.: unlimited vacations/parental leave, flexible hours, work from home, etc) and really really under delivered. I would rather have things set in stone first nowadays b/c the mindset of most managers here are still not ready for those.

Unlimited PTO is more an American thing in my experience. And is never really unlimited as you will be judged when using it. In Europe it's common with 5+ weeks of vacation, which is also often mandatory by law to take.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#52

Post by sweeeety »

maaaats wrote: post #51
sweeeety wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my experience in Europe though. My last two employers here constantly over promised (e.g.: unlimited vacations/parental leave, flexible hours, work from home, etc) and really really under delivered. I would rather have things set in stone first nowadays b/c the mindset of most managers here are still not ready for those.

Unlimited PTO is more an American thing in my experience. And is never really unlimited as you will be judged when using it. In Europe it's common with 5+ weeks of vacation, which is also often mandatory by law to take.

well, what can I say, this company had a real problem following the union agreements and EU laws: no paid extra hours (on-call), no notice, no paternity leave according to local laws, etc. On the other hand, was really adamant to keep the 9:30 stand-up meeting for the sake of face time.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#53

Post by yason »

Traditionally, what is on the records and what happens in real life are two very different things. In each case I've seen in private companies, public offices, or universities, the timesheets are duly filled with what is expected and then the work and life continue as before.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#54

Post by lima165 »

romanovcode wrote: post #3

I guess it's good for workers: No one will work over what he is suppose to work and also will stop answering emails/slack/etc after work hours and/or in the weekends. Employers have this stupid notion that the workers are slacking but in office setting IMO this would backfire by malicious compliance from the workers. Also, good job Spanish Trade Union in making things worse for everyone in EU.

[flagged]

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#55

Post by mordae »

iovrthoughtthis wrote: post #30

I worry this will have a negative impact on culture in work environments with more of a return to “bums in seats” management rather than outputs focussed management. That’s a pretty myopic view though many jobs have no objective outputs which makes hours one of the measurable metrics.

This.

It solves nothing, since the crooks will just continue to cook the books. This is already "mandatory" in Czechia and I have yet to hear about anyone being sued for not upholding the Labor Code.

On the other hand, the tech employees will have to take extra care to manage their attendance sheet with arbitrary requirements such as no weekends and/or no late-night work contrary to the actual practice of being on-call as needed with it being already factored into the pay.

Unless there is a significant bounty for employees who report such breaches for their current employer, the only businesses upholding the law are the very same businesses who would have done so nevertheless.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#56

Post by Ntrails »

toolslive wrote: post #40
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wanted to work in the weekend? no problem. Except that in many countries in Europe you aren't allowed to work on Sundays, and time tracking will be used to enforce it.

It's actually more liberal than that. You are allowed to work on Sunday, but it's more expensive for your employer as they need to compensate the discomfort. Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that). In the end, your employer probably will not let you work Sundays if it isn't worth it (to them).

> Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that)

People have the weirdest views on how tax actually works. Taxes will eat the same proportion, or potentially marginally more - but unless a persons marginal rate is suddenly >50% you're obviously wrong.

I would go as far as to suggest this is a non issue in the majority of cases where overtime is paid.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#57

Post by ovi256 »

alkonaut wrote: post #25
adwn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For project budget and billing purposes, it is sufficient to track the number of hours each day. This court decision, however, would require to also track the start and end time, as well as the durations of all breaks. That's because there are laws regulating how much break time you have to take each day (dependend on how many hours you work) and also how much time has to pass between two work days. If you're working…

I just have one break (lunch) and for tracking and internal billing, and for knowing whether I'm ahead or behind on my flexible working time (I'm expected to do 40h and I have a buffer that can't go above +15h or below -15h) I punch in and out in the morning, for lunch, and when I leave. On some days I don't bother or I forget, and instead enter, as you say "plausible but made up" values. But the important thing is t…

In your case this way of working and paying for that work is already built-in into your company's business plan.

The problem is that there is a significant fraction of employers that pay for 40h (or whatever) and get more. And this is built-in into their current business plan (even if not explicitly). Their employees seem OK with it because they do it. But it's not easy to change into your situation: these employers either will have to pay more to get the hours they already get or pay the same but get less hours. This will have an impact on their cost structure. Whatever widgets they make will get more expensive.

This new regulation is the way the government is saying to these companies "yeah all this economic activity that you're doing is nice but we don't really want it actually. Not like this!"

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#58

Post by ovi256 »

Ntrails wrote: post #56
toolslive wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually more liberal than that. You are allowed to work on Sunday, but it's more expensive for your employer as they need to compensate the discomfort. Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that). In the end, your employer probably will not let you work Sundays if it isn't worth it (to them).

> Double pay and triple pay are not uncommon (although taxes will eat most of that) People have the weirdest views on how tax actually works. Taxes will eat the same proportion, or potentially marginally more - but unless a persons marginal rate is suddenly >50% you're obviously wrong. I would go as far as to suggest this is a non issue in the majority of cases where overtime is paid.

Tax rate for Western EU workers is definitely above 50%, if you look at aggregate national income that finishes in government budgets (about 53%).

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#59

Post by alkonaut »

ovi256 wrote: post #57
alkonaut wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just have one break (lunch) and for tracking and internal billing, and for knowing whether I'm ahead or behind on my flexible working time (I'm expected to do 40h and I have a buffer that can't go above +15h or below -15h) I punch in and out in the morning, for lunch, and when I leave. On some days I don't bother or I forget, and instead enter, as you say "plausible but made up" values. But the important thing is t…

In your case this way of working and paying for that work is already built-in into your company's business plan. The problem is that there is a significant fraction of employers that pay for 40h (or whatever) and get more. And this is built-in into their current business plan (even if not explicitly). Their employees seem OK with it because they do it. But it's not easy to change into your situation: these employers…

Yes but if they systematically work more than 40h weeks then that's just not something to brush off as "well that's what we do in the industry", that's in many places illegal.

Widgets that need to be more expensive, should.

> all this economic activity that you're doing is nice but we don't really want it actually. Not like this

That's what they said when we had 6day work weeks and went to 5, or when we got 40h work weeks. Actually enforcing it shouldn't be a bigger change than mandating it already was. Same thing with holidays. I make REALLY expensive widgets because I have 5weeks paid holiday. And they should be expensive because I really want the holiday.

Re: European Court of Justice: EU employers must track working time in detail

#60

Post by zaarn »

adwn wrote: post #41
zaarn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fully on the employer if they log more time than you actually worked, the issue that was addressed with this ruling was people who'd clock out and then continue to work or where there is no clock and people simply write down how long they worked. The issue the court had was that if you write it down then there is the possibility that you worked overtime but didn't actually write that or your employer changed it.…

> the issue that was addressed with this ruling was people who'd clock out and then continue to work or where there is no clock and people simply write down how long they worked No, this ruling cannot prevent this practice at all. How could it, without a government official standing watch?

It's not uncommon to have random samples taken by officials. They'll just show up, make a list of everyone clocked in and then interview a few (or all) workers. If they find someone who isn't clocked in, that is a big issue for the employer.

Plus, accurate records are a good basis for any lawsuit in case an employee claims they worked unpaid overtime.

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