ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11 • Hacker News Board

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#51

Post by gridlockd » Tue, May 07, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

m_st wrote: post #36

Nice for them! We launched a web application for construction companies in Switzerland a few months ago. And quickly learned the hard way that we have to improve the IE compatibility. The last 90 days IE11 was used for 36% of all traffic. Too bad the new Edge isn't called IE12 and automatically deployed as a replacement through Windows Update :-)

How many of those 36% would insist on using IE11 though? What would happen if you just forced them to use Chrome? Chrome might actually already be installed, just not preferred.

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#52

Post by clairity » Tue, May 07, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

m_st wrote: post #36

Nice for them! We launched a web application for construction companies in Switzerland a few months ago. And quickly learned the hard way that we have to improve the IE compatibility. The last 90 days IE11 was used for 36% of all traffic. Too bad the new Edge isn't called IE12 and automatically deployed as a replacement through Windows Update :-)

as a way to support backwards-compatibility, microsoft plans to integrate IE into edge: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/05/coming-soon-to-chrom...

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#53

Post by gridlockd » Tue, May 07, 2019, 8:21 PM UTC

perardi wrote: post #7

Supermighty wrote: post #4

I understand them wanting to discontinue browsers that have very low usage and have discontinued support from Microsoft, but I can't help but feel a little sad about the narrowing browser engine ecosystem.

How exactly does it help anybody to to support little-used, out-of-date, insecure browsers?

It really depends, some place simply have infrastructure that you aren't going to change for whatever reason. So you may lose those clients, but that needs to be verified.

Having said that, IE11 is still supported so it doesn't strike me as security risk. In fact, not updating a browser with features is likely going to improve security. A little-used browser is also less attractive to target for exploitation.

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#54

Post by TimTheTinker » Tue, May 07, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

Crinus wrote: post #19

anon777778 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last major update for IE11 was like 6 years ago? Supporting anything related to this browser is painful and is blocking multiple new web features (or even not so new). I would love to use CSS Grid without thinking whether it will work however it happens that IE11 has only partial (and buggy) support for it. I believe that supporting IE11 blocks innovation.

What sort of features does a mail client need though? Up until recently i was using SquirrelMail and only stopped because my webhost removed it (likely because there hasn't been an official release for a few years now... which is weird since there is progress in the code repository, just not official releases). In case you haven't used it, SqurrelMail barely uses anything beyond a couple of frames (normal ones, not i…

> What sort of features does a mail client need though?

How about a consistent, reliable implementation of modern web standards? If you had to write a mail client in Java, would you rather target Java 1.5 or the most recent version?

Many small (and large) features together make a huge difference when it all adds up to providing an implementation of modern web standards that is consistent with other browsers and with modern standards. It's a huge burden to always be checking "is this supported in IE11 or is there a polyfill we can use" when wanting to use a native function or object (not to mention features that can't be polyfilled or transpiled, like ES6 proxies).

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#55

Post by brianpgordon » Tue, May 07, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

trothamel wrote: post #47

watermelon0 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, Edge is completely different from IE, and still cannot replace it in most cases. There are still too many public websites (e.g. online banking and other sites using digital signatures), and even more enterprise intranet sites, that require legacy ActiveX, Java applets, or Silverlight. I'm fairly sure Microsoft is not fan of IE either, but they will still be stuck with it for many years. The most they can proba…

Do you have examples of this? My sense is why this had been the case, it's been several years since I've encountered a site that doesn't work with some combination of the HTML5 web stack and flash.

Is this still current?

https://www.zdnet.com/article/south-koreans-use-internet-exp...

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#56

Post by shados » Wed, May 08, 2019, 12:37 AM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #50

shados wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need enough as to be reasonable competing point of views when it comes to setting standards. Things like web components, service workers, built-in javascript modules and more were pretty meh features pushed really hard by a specific browser vendor that tried to ignore feedback/pushback. The only way the standards won't get to be more of a mess is if we have multiple implementations and multiple, distinct organizat…

Do we even need more standards though? The standardization process takes a lot of time and just because something is a standard doesn't mean major players will implement it. Implementations always trump. Browsers are basically an operating system now. For comparison, nobody cares that the Linux kernel isn't a standard. Nobody wants a "competing" Linux kernel implementation. The implementation itself is the standard a…

> That's just not true

Its true enough: it keeps happening. Patch it out or resist all you want, it doesn't matter if you have to acknowledge and deal with its existence, if only because of the amount of energy it takes to push back against it. If it doesn't have a feature you want because they disagree, you can add it to your browser of choice, but it doesn't matter because you still won't be able to use it.

It's exactly what we're seeing with firefox. They could implement feature XYZ, but it would be irrelevant because no one (web developers) could use it.

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#57

Post by gridlockd » Wed, May 08, 2019, 1:35 AM UTC

shados wrote: post #56

gridlockd wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we even need more standards though? The standardization process takes a lot of time and just because something is a standard doesn't mean major players will implement it. Implementations always trump. Browsers are basically an operating system now. For comparison, nobody cares that the Linux kernel isn't a standard. Nobody wants a "competing" Linux kernel implementation. The implementation itself is the standard a…

> That's just not true Its true enough: it keeps happening. Patch it out or resist all you want, it doesn't matter if you have to acknowledge and deal with its existence, if only because of the amount of energy it takes to push back against it. If it doesn't have a feature you want because they disagree, you can add it to your browser of choice, but it doesn't matter because you still won't be able to use it. It's ex…

You just moved from "market leader can dictate the standard" to "market leader can dictate what developers will want to target".

But with that premise, having a standard or not doesn't determine the outcome. Market share determines the outcome. The standards are just recommendations, nothing forces Google or anyone else to implement them.

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#58

Post by elliotec » Wed, May 08, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

ahelwer wrote: post #17

Maybe I'll be able to reach other ProtonMail users here - does anyone else have persistent issues logging in to the web client? I use Firefox, LastPass, and Authy for 2FA. I have to try 6-7 times to log in every time, it drives me nuts. If it weren't for the mobile app I would have dumped this service long ago (for which I pay $50/year). This is the only site where I have issues logging in.

I have never had problems logging in. I use my ProtonMail credentials in Firefox, Chrome, and Brave, and FaceId on the iPhone. Zero issues in over a year of using it.

Have you tried contacting their support team?

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#59

Post by iamnothere » Wed, May 08, 2019, 3:10 AM UTC

gridlockd wrote: post #50

shados wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need enough as to be reasonable competing point of views when it comes to setting standards. Things like web components, service workers, built-in javascript modules and more were pretty meh features pushed really hard by a specific browser vendor that tried to ignore feedback/pushback. The only way the standards won't get to be more of a mess is if we have multiple implementations and multiple, distinct organizat…

Do we even need more standards though? The standardization process takes a lot of time and just because something is a standard doesn't mean major players will implement it. Implementations always trump. Browsers are basically an operating system now. For comparison, nobody cares that the Linux kernel isn't a standard. Nobody wants a "competing" Linux kernel implementation. The implementation itself is the standard a…

> For comparison, nobody cares that the Linux kernel isn't a standard. Nobody wants a "competing" Linux kernel implementation. The implementation itself is the standard and reference and that's totally fine.

Except for the people working on the BSDs, Hurd, Minix, etc.

POSIX is the standard, Linux is the implementation (not completely accurate, but close enough). Apps built to the standard can usually run on BSD with minor changes, just like websites built to work with Chrome usually work well on Firefox with only a few minor changes.

I will be controversial and say that Linux's utter dominance in the post-UNIX space may have been detrimental to the development of the ecosystem as a whole, limiting radical experimentation and preventing a much-needed reimagining of core computing paradigms.

Re: ProtonMail is dropping support for Internet Explorer 11

#60

Post by gridlockd » Wed, May 08, 2019, 8:08 AM UTC

iamnothere wrote: post #59

gridlockd wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we even need more standards though? The standardization process takes a lot of time and just because something is a standard doesn't mean major players will implement it. Implementations always trump. Browsers are basically an operating system now. For comparison, nobody cares that the Linux kernel isn't a standard. Nobody wants a "competing" Linux kernel implementation. The implementation itself is the standard a…

> For comparison, nobody cares that the Linux kernel isn't a standard. Nobody wants a "competing" Linux kernel implementation. The implementation itself is the standard and reference and that's totally fine. Except for the people working on the BSDs, Hurd, Minix, etc. POSIX is the standard, Linux is the implementation (not completely accurate, but close enough). Apps built to the standard can usually run on BSD with…

> POSIX is the standard, Linux is the implementation (not completely accurate, but close enough)

POSIX is more of a post-hoc thing, it doesn't really matter except for compliance - and then Linux isn't compliant. In practice you still need an abstraction layer.

If you want to use actual Linux features, you have to use Linux-specific interfaces. Of course a lot of applications don't do that, but that's besides the point.

The same is true for other UNIX (and non-UNIX) operating systems. They're not implementing new standards, they're implementing features to differentiate themselves.

> I will be controversial and say that Linux's utter dominance in the post-UNIX space may have been detrimental to the development of the ecosystem as a whole, limiting radical experimentation and preventing a much-needed reimagining of core computing paradigms.

Perhaps, but standards wouldn't help here - to the contrary.