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A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

latimes.com

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Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#51

Post by deanalevitt »

I might have missed it when scanning the article, but nowhere did it mention how the formal ethical codes for docs and lawyers are backed up by licenses and review panels and exams. Are they proposing the same regulation before allowing someone to build an app?

Would they call for the same for journalists too? Arguably, the media has an equal need for ethical oversight, but we generally prefer the media to be free of partisan interference.

I believe journalists and technologists are better off without state or federal licensing to enforce ethical codes.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#52

Post by maxxxxx »

analognoise wrote: post #45
maxxxxx wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people will think creating weapons for defense is an ethical thing to do. I prefer not to do that but I think the point is valid and there is no clear way to determine what’s ethical and what isn't.

What's unethical is to have your countrymen in a fight with substandard equipment that you could have helped them improve. War is an ever-present possibility - do you want your neighbor's kids (or yours, if they join the service) dying or being maimed because you didn't help with what you know? 1000 years ago, if you were a blacksmith and the Vikings were coming, would you make swords or ornamental railings? People w…

“think the limp-wristed 'ethical' stance on defense is really just virtue-signalling for other limp-wristed selfish people.”

You are making some good points and you are damaging them with your last paragraph.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#53

Post by analognoise »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #16
MangezBien wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making missile guidance software is wholly unethical and is what we should be striving to prevent engineers from working on.

The alternative to guided missiles isn’t peace, it’s carpet bombing.

This person gets it.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#54

Post by MangezBien »

briandear wrote: post #33
MangezBien wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making missile guidance software is wholly unethical and is what we should be striving to prevent engineers from working on.

That’s ridiculous. Letting ISIS exist is unethical. Allowing the North Korean government to exist is unethical. Allowing Nazis to attack Poland was unethical. Germans occupying France was unethical. Letting Somali warlords steal UN food aid was unethical. Saddam Hussein invading Kuwait was unethical. Creating weapons to defend against and prevent such things? Not only ethical, but honorable. Would you have us fight e…

No, that is ridiculous. Missals made in the US are used to fight illegal wars in the middle east and sold to dictators committing genocide. Stop drinking the nationalism kool-aide, we aren't the good guys.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#55

Post by Jtsummers »

randomdata wrote: post #38
Jtsummers wrote: post #14

https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.ieee.org/about/corporate/governance/p7-8.html These seem like good starting points to me.

The problem is that unless there is a licensing body that enforces adherence the ethics, they will be ignored. Doctors and lawyers have such licensing requirements, tech does not. The question is not what the ethics should say, but whether or not tech should require licensing to be involved in it.

Then establish something comparable to the PE concept for software engineers, and require it for certain categories of software (aviation and medical software already have to get certified, have a Professional Software Engineer on the hook too, and then extend this to other types of software systems like certain financial, legal, or personal data systems).

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#56

Post by maxxxxx »

briandear wrote: post #47
maxxxxx wrote: post #6

I am usually not averse against regulation but one advantage of tech is that it's still the Wild West where it's possible to innovate quickly and change things. Lawyers and doctors are in much more controlled environment where not much innovation is happening. I am also not sure how to determine what's ethical or not. I much prefer laws like GDPR where there is a set of rules everyone has to follow.

Medicine is innovating a lot more than some ride-sharing, restaurant rating, social-local photo sharing app startup.

No. I work in medical and progress is much slower. In a lot of tech you can try something and get immediate feedback. In medical you have to wait for years and spend a ton of money.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#57

Post by Apreche »

tonetheman wrote: post #2

Programmers/technologist often work for those who only work money... ethics generally do not work in such places...

Exactly this. If we create hardware and software ethically, that product will not make enough money. Capitalism is almost entirely add odds with ethical engineering practices.

Think about it. Imagine Facebook not doing anything evil. Never selling your data without your permission. Never spying on you. Putting lots of restrictions on advertisements to make sure they are all ok. Banning all the bad users. Reporting analytics accurately. Etc.

How would Facebook make any money? The only ethical sources of income would be to sell non evil ads (if you believe there even is such a thing) or to charge users money to have accounts like Netflix. Non-evil ads are not very effective, and with accurate analytics, they will not fetch a high price.

What other ethical business model is there? If operating ethically, they would be lucky to cover their operating costs. Giving any kind of ROI to investors would be impossible. The same applies to every Silicon Valley operation. Google, Twitter, etc. If they operate ethically and morally, they can't make enough money.

Of course, if the power were mine, I would force them to behave ethically anyway. I don't care if they all shut down. Gonna eat me some rich people.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#58

Post by mieseratte »

shawnz wrote: post #50
mieseratte wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and socioeconomic forces means that black people face systemic barriers to getting access to that education (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.) This is false. Poor, rural whites can and do face the exact same sets of challenges as those from an impoverished black backgrounds, perhaps with the exception of naming but even then I saw a headline last week with a girl named, no joke, Crystal Methany.

The parent never said that there are no white people who face socioeconomic challenges. But whiteness itself does not create any socioeconomic disadvantage.

Here is what the parent wrote:

> and socioeconomic forces means that black people face systemic barriers to getting access to that education (versus whites, indians, asians, etc.)

My contention is that the exact same socioeconomic forces exist across racial lines. There may be historical factors that vary by racial group, or sub-groups therein, but the problems are universal.

Re: A Facebook request: Write a code of tech ethics

#60

Post by maxxxxx »

matz1 wrote: post #44
maxxxxx wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say.

Edited some mistake. My point is everyone have different ethics. You must fight for your preference if you want yours to be the winning ethics. There no one true "correct" ethics

I guess we agree then. Determining what’s ethical is personal and it will be hard to crater a universal code.
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