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Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

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Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#51

Post by jbay808 »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #25
killjoywashere wrote: post #8

Who, exactly, doesn't understand that the US university system requires a certain number of grad students to have the research output it produces, and a great way to close that gap would be to improve secondary education in the US? Also, I have a bit of ill will toward US universities that turns down US students in favor of Chinese students. I'm looking at you, UCSD.

There aren't many students fit for grad school (in the sciences) that are held back by poor secondary education. Obviously, some specialized programs could accelerate top kids farther, faster, but they're mostly already grad-school capable.

This is quite a tangent... But how are you sure about this? I have known many high performing kids that felt severely under-challenged in secondary school, or were even picked on for showing genuine interest in their material. Some of them made it through and turned out fine in the end, but some of them didn't. Some ended up dropping out early, or severely under-performing their potential and throwing away a shot at becoming "grad school capable". (Whether on purpose, due to self sabotage or boredom, peer pressure, or bad habits). The teachers did their best but had to focus on the even more at-risk students.

Not all high-performing students will do well regardless of their environment. Some will crash and burn without support, and that doesn't only mean "accelerating them farther faster". It can be enough to group them together with other kids that are similarly enthusiastic and curious, so that they don't shoot each other down.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#52

Post by Causality1 »

Evidlo wrote: post #34
Causality1 wrote: post #22

Wow, fuck that site. It literally won't let me read it in landscape orientation.

Doesn't work without JS either.

I just put it in desktop mode and it worked fine. What a ridiculous design choice to make, though.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#53

Post by paxys »

Zarath wrote: post #27
rapsey wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think due to the US inability to fix fundamental issues with regards to upward mobility, education and a fuck you attitude on the world stage. Anything they do to counter China will only hasten the rise of China and their decline.

A vast majority of the Chinese international students I met in college were: Already incredibly wealthy (if you think inequality is bad in the US, you should see Shanghai or other parts of China) and had no intentions of staying in the US and were just here for education. It was extremely common to see Chinese students driving around in BMWs, Mercedes, Audis, and very often nicer cars, and it became something of a st…

Ever since the recession most states have cut funding for public universities down to nothing, so they have to rely on rich international students paying exorbitant tuition in order to subsidize costs. It's pretty likely that it was those students and not taxpayers that were funding your education.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#54

Post by rapsey »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #32
EchoAce wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's vacuously true on account of the fact that being rich is fundamentally good no matter where you are, I'd argue that China is even better to live in if you're rich.

" I'd argue that China is even better to live in if you're rich." ? If you're rich in the US, you stay rich as long as you keep your money. In China, your RMB is worth what the Party says it's worth, and you can be arbitrarily destroyed for political reasons. Excepting issues like 'cheap labour' - on most other secular issues, America is a better place to be rich, once you're rich. (ie notwithstanding non culturally…

Currency manipulation is what every central bank does. It's their job. The Chinese are not particularly special in this regard.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#55

Post by ETHisso2017 »

colechristensen wrote: post #50
ETHisso2017 wrote: post #41

I've heard that AI and semicon are going on the export control list, and even a US national communicating knowledge with someone is a "deemed export". Does this mean all Chinese H1-Bs are going to be barred from working at Microsoft, Google, Intel, and Qualcomm?

It means that AI is going to be sequestered to buildings with big unfriendly signs at the door "No Foreign Persons Beyond This Point" and data will have to be managed in ways similar to medical, financial, legal, or payment data. Long ago I worked in defense and had some export controlled hardware (unlocked/no restriction high performance GPS and satellite technology) What it meant was that to work on our stuff you h…

But given the broad definition of AI and semiconductor design, however, and inclusion of other technologies like "Logistics" (seriously, the whole category, not a subfield) within emerging technologies list, wouldn't this, in practice, make whole companies no-go-zones for Chinese H1-Bs?

I can't see Intel or Applied Materials or even UPS having Chinese H1-Bs around in the future. While there are some here who wouldn't mind having a Chinese Exclusion Act in their industry, I'm hopeful a majority of voices here will see the problem inherent with moves like this.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#56

Post by sonnyblarney »

rapsey wrote: post #54
sonnyblarney wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I'd argue that China is even better to live in if you're rich." ? If you're rich in the US, you stay rich as long as you keep your money. In China, your RMB is worth what the Party says it's worth, and you can be arbitrarily destroyed for political reasons. Excepting issues like 'cheap labour' - on most other secular issues, America is a better place to be rich, once you're rich. (ie notwithstanding non culturally…

Currency manipulation is what every central bank does. It's their job. The Chinese are not particularly special in this regard.

Yes, they absolutely are.

The RMB is a fictitious currency because a) the central bank is politically controlled b) there are currency controls c) lending is driven by the state and d) it's opaque.

The Chinese government has magical monetary policy powers, they can do anything.

The US has a fair bit of transparency, no political control and no capital controls. That adds up to a fairly 'fair market value' for USD. They can get away with shenanigans, but not remotely like China.

The Euro is the strongest of the big currencies, mostly by virtue of the fact many countries share a currency, and they are all afraid the other would print money and play games ... so in effect you get super strict rules.

Euros are backed by assets according to rules. There's some sneakyness, but it's all papered over with rules.

The USD is backed by the US gov, and since 2007 a lot of real estate. Also, because it's a seigneurage currency, it's kind of backed by the fact everyone around the world uses it.

The RMB is just whatever the party wants it to be worth.

China wants everyone to respect the RMB, they want to make more international transactions etc. but for that the rest of the world needs to see it's reliable. But in order for that, China has to play by a set of rules and not play harry potter with money. But they want to keep the magic wand (it's rational for them to want that power), so they will have a hard time making RMB go much further than their immediate periphery. Nobody wants to hold RMB.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#57

Post by NicoJuicy »

rapsey wrote: post #29
EchoAce wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's vacuously true on account of the fact that being rich is fundamentally good no matter where you are, I'd argue that China is even better to live in if you're rich.

Rich in the US means best healthcare in the world, best education and eniterely risk free from political persecution.

I don't know, but health care is at least as good in Europe, if not better.

I'm pretty sure some huge companies have important advantages by portraying that the expensive one of the US is better. But I highly doubt it.

And for the really rare cases for rich person's, people fly where the best specialist is.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#58

Post by leereeves »

someguydave wrote: post #2

In electronics, the success of areas like Shenzhen and the relative expense of engineering in the US has decimated non-defense industry. In 2002, there were 385,000 electrical engineers in the US. In 2014, there were only 300,000. ( https://www.computerworld.com/article/2487847/what-stem-shor... ) Why should foreign students expect to work in relatively expensive industries that are losing employees in the US?

According to the BLS there were 324,600 electrical and electronics engineers in the US in 2016.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electri...

A bit of a decline but "decimated" is too strong a word for a decline from 385,000 to 324,600, and much of that is due to smartphones and tablets (and single-board computers like the Raspberry Pi) that reduced the need for custom electronics. For example: in the 90s I worked for a company that made a custom handheld device. Now that product is an app.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#59

Post by rapsey »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #57
rapsey wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich in the US means best healthcare in the world, best education and eniterely risk free from political persecution.

I don't know, but health care is at least as good in Europe, if not better. I'm pretty sure some huge companies have important advantages by portraying that the expensive one of the US is better. But I highly doubt it. And for the really rare cases for rich person's, people fly where the best specialist is.

Some places, definitely not public healthcare.

Re: Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students

#60

Post by someguydave »

leereeves wrote: post #58
someguydave wrote: post #2

In electronics, the success of areas like Shenzhen and the relative expense of engineering in the US has decimated non-defense industry. In 2002, there were 385,000 electrical engineers in the US. In 2014, there were only 300,000. ( https://www.computerworld.com/article/2487847/what-stem-shor... ) Why should foreign students expect to work in relatively expensive industries that are losing employees in the US?

According to the BLS there were 324,600 electrical and electronics engineers in the US in 2016. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electri... A bit of a decline but "decimated" is too strong a word for a decline from 385,000 to 324,600, and much of that is due to smartphones and tablets (and single-board computers like the Raspberry Pi) that reduced the need for custom electronics. For example: in t…

I used the word "decimated" because electronics are so integral to productivity that there should be an explanation for the missing growth from 385,000. The fact that there's a decline at all is a double whammy.
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