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PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

thelede.blogs.nytimes.com

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Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#51

Post by steveklabnik »

gbrindisi wrote: post #26

I am reading a lot of boycott statement against Paypal in the comments – and I fully understand – but guys... where have you been when Amazon refused to host Wikileaks? And what about EasyDNS? Paypal is a company doing business and I dislike them as much as you do but please don't forget that Government >> Company. Always.

Amazon is much harder for me to move away from than PayPal. with PayPal, I just transfer my money out and click the cancel button.

With Amazon, I have to re-do my entire deployment setup, since Heroku has made it so freaking easy. Not to mention migrate all of my addon accounts too... significantly more complicated.

I'll still do it, it just won't happen today.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#52

Post by SwellJoe »

sliverstorm wrote: post #39
dualogy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the VERY PROBLEM Wikileaks is showcasing here?

It's a problem that a company has to obey the laws of the country it resides in?

What laws, in particular, did you have in mind? Wikileaks has not, to the best of my knowledge, been charged with any violation of law in the United States (or anywhere else, for that matter).

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#53

Post by hackinthebochs »

haploid wrote: post #43
iwr wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While PayPal deserves the negative rep for screwing their customers, it doesn't deserve it for being a US corporation, vulnerable to the US government. The bad guy here is not PayPal.

Is this a serious post? The government can exact capricious petty revenge on your business, so it's not the business's fault for exercising cowardice? It would be unbelievably easy to rightfully Godwin your perspective on this issue, but I won't do it. The United States is a nation predicated on a set of inviolate rights that are supposedly protected by the charter document of the nation itself. Among these rights ar…

>PayPal, Amazon, et. al. Have not broken the law by providing services to Wikileaks

I would be surprised if it's not illegal to aid in the dissemination of classified material. Nevertheless, its certainly illegal to aid an abet terrorists. Seeing as the government owns the monopoly on defining who is a terrorist, it's not a stretch at all to see there might be actual legal consequences down the road for these companies.

This may not be "right", but this isn't Amazon's or Paypal's fight to have. I don't blame them one bit. This is Wikileak's problem to deal with--It comes with the territory.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#54

Post by trevelyan »

kgarten wrote: post #40
jessor wrote: post #5

Paypal also took the account of the Wau Holland Stiftung because they collect money for wikileaks. PayPal told us we are "in violation of PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy regarding (...) financial support to Wikileaks" and took our account. http://twitter.com/#!/wauland/status/10987193778569216

PayPal went over board with this, as the Wau Holland Foundation just gave money to Wikileaks for a specific purpose holding them accountable for any spendings. It is impossible to argue that the money from the foundation was used for any illegal/criminal activity.

I donated and have written Paypal to ask for clarification on why the account was closed and what their policy is for returning the money or seeing it through to the intended recipient, etc.

Hopefully others who donated will do this as well so that there are at least some customer service costs associated with this. As you mention, there doesn't seem to be much if any illegality about the activities that I can spot, and fair use for political speech covers the rest.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#55

Post by Keyframe »

steveklabnik wrote: post #50
Keyframe wrote: post #45

TBH, I was amazed they didn't pull the plug sooner, considering all the negativity surrounding paypal. I haven't had any issues with paypal myself, but reading all the stories from other people having issues with them... I don't know, I would really REALLY like to have an alternative somewhere, but sadly there isn't one.

Usually, PayPal is "evil" because of false positives on fraud. They'd know that an account for an organization like WikiLeaks is legit. There is a YC-company alternative: https://www.wepay.com/

I'm sorry, I meant paypal alternative for payments and money transfers through internet, not as a collection/donation service for groups. Sad fact is that nothing is as widespread as paypal. And even paypal doesn't have an option to receive money here (Croatia) because national bank (governs bank policies among other things) wants them to be regulated like other banks here, so they're "talking about it".

To me, it sounds like a pretty obvious route for a startup disruption opportunity. I guess bar is set too high (financially and logistically) for a small-ish startup to make a significant entry to that market (global). There are compatible businesses that could make a significant entry/impact, but they didn't do it (Western Union, Moneybookers, Google Checkout, Amazon...) - I always wondered why (if we choose to ignore the stronghold of ebay paypal has behind it).

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#56

Post by steveklabnik »

Keyframe wrote: post #55
steveklabnik wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually, PayPal is "evil" because of false positives on fraud. They'd know that an account for an organization like WikiLeaks is legit. There is a YC-company alternative: https://www.wepay.com/

I'm sorry, I meant paypal alternative for payments and money transfers through internet, not as a collection/donation service for groups. Sad fact is that nothing is as widespread as paypal. And even paypal doesn't have an option to receive money here (Croatia) because national bank (governs bank policies among other things) wants them to be regulated like other banks here, so they're "talking about it". To me, it so…

What, you're not just a group of one? ;) But yeah, dunno about Croatia...

The bar is extremely high, mostly due to fraud, from what I understand. We only hear about false positives, but it's a huge problem.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#57

Post by Pahalial »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #53
haploid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a serious post? The government can exact capricious petty revenge on your business, so it's not the business's fault for exercising cowardice? It would be unbelievably easy to rightfully Godwin your perspective on this issue, but I won't do it. The United States is a nation predicated on a set of inviolate rights that are supposedly protected by the charter document of the nation itself. Among these rights ar…

>PayPal, Amazon, et. al. Have not broken the law by providing services to Wikileaks I would be surprised if it's not illegal to aid in the dissemination of classified material. Nevertheless, its certainly illegal to aid an abet terrorists. Seeing as the government owns the monopoly on defining who is a terrorist, it's not a stretch at all to see there might be actual legal consequences down the road for these compani…

No, the legal ramifications only come into play when the government officially declares something a terrorist organization. In the USA, this would be done by the State Department, which has yet to issue such a proclamation. All this folding by American companies until Wikileaks is actually branded such is (depending on your POV) pure cowardice or generous cooperation with the present interests of government.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_or...

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#58

Post by nerfhammer »

buro9 wrote: post #24
bjonathan wrote: post #18

Huge marketing opportunity for WePay! (and also a huge opportunity to do the right thing)

Are WePay being used by Wikileaks? How will WePay as a US company offer any real guarantee not to do the same? Can WePay make any commitment or guarantee given that they are integrated into a system and other entities (i.e. Visa, Mastercard, etc) could pull their plug over this? I'm really just curious. If WePay honestly will do the right thing and treat money as money regardless of how people choose to spend it (the…

And how will WePay's board like this idea?

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#59

Post by billmcneale »

cloudwalking wrote: post #2

A lot of corporations are coming out against Wikileaks, and I don't feel the same way. What are they considering that I'm not

WikiLeaks is violating the terms of service of most of the companies they are trying to use, so their accounts get shut down.

This has nothing to do with censorship nor giving in to political pressure, stop seeing conspiracies everywhere.

Re: PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account

#60

Post by patrickaljord »

steveklabnik wrote: post #50
Keyframe wrote: post #45

TBH, I was amazed they didn't pull the plug sooner, considering all the negativity surrounding paypal. I haven't had any issues with paypal myself, but reading all the stories from other people having issues with them... I don't know, I would really REALLY like to have an alternative somewhere, but sadly there isn't one.

Usually, PayPal is "evil" because of false positives on fraud. They'd know that an account for an organization like WikiLeaks is legit. There is a YC-company alternative: https://www.wepay.com/

wepay and paypal would face the same issues of false positive on fraud. The only thing that could help would be the day all banks implements OpenTransact which is basically OAuth for payment http://www.opentransact.org/ with no intermediary between banks, maybe one day... I know Banksimple said they would implement it.
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