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Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#51

Post by ethbro »

_Microft wrote: post #32

I think the best thing we could do to solve a whole lot of problems at once is assertiveness training for pupils, for example. Teach young people how to communicate what they perceive as their boundaries and that violations of these boundaries will have consequences. I would expect that a lot of things will get better. It would be a win for both active and passive parties in every interaction. If someone finds their…

This. So much this.

Communication. And grace.

If you're not sure if something is welcome, ask... politely. If someone does something unwelcome, say something... politely. If you see two other people involved in an unwelcome exchange, try to smooth the situation over while teaching lessons... politely.

I volunteer with a variety of alternative groups. It's actually logically impossible to act in a way that everyone's norms around touch are satisfied, because many are mutually exclusive.

In an absence of clarity, all we have is communication, consent, and fundamental decency in how we treat each other when one or both of us &#+@s up. Because we all will, at one point or another.

Teaching children to reach for polite assertiveness when called for, and polite apology when due, would go a long way towards making the world a better place.

(And just to head off the inevitable: we're clearly talking about sub-criminal actions here)

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#52

Post by apacheCamel »

blfr wrote: post #37
apacheCamel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you be able to give other examples of this obsession with rules? From this, and this alone, I'd like to imagine that people just want to clear up the unknown. Social interactions are almost always different from one person to the next. Social norms do tend to keep things pretty similar but the whole range can vary wildly. Maybe this is just a way to narrow the range? I don't think it is a great way to handle th…

Codes of conduct.

I think my original statement stands with this example as well. Codes of conduct try to standardize interactions. It tries to get rid of the "unknown". I think they can make sense in a business sense. You would want your employees to all act roughly the same towards each other or those around them (customers). On the other hand, I don't think we would need a "Code of Conduct of Life" for basic human interaction outside of the workplace.

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#53

Post by deogeo »

The article mentions some research. Let me add https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Harlow#Partial_and_total... to the list:

"Partial isolation involved raising monkeys in bare wire cages that allowed them to see, smell, and hear other monkeys, but provided no opportunity for physical contact. [..] partial isolation resulted in various abnormalities such as blank staring, stereotyped repetitive circling in their cages, and self-mutilation."

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#54

Post by Veen »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #41

I don't really mind being touched, but it's definitely rather strange and I don't know why would I touch others like that. Why do some people feel such a need? It's not polite, it's... awkward.

Because many people enjoy casual social touching. Personally, I find it pleasing when someone gives my arm a squeeze or gives me a hug when I am leaving. But I would find it awkward to be asked "Do I have consent to sqeeze your arm". For me, and for many people, touch is a comforting gesture of affection and I'd be sad if people felt that they couldn't interact with me in that way.

I'm English and we don't do much casual touching. But when I shared a house with French people, they were visibly offended when I pulled back from a casual kiss on the cheek to say hello and goodbye. Getting used to it cost me nothing and eventually it became natural to me. I have a South African friend of Indian descent, he's much more tactile than is usual in friendships between straight males in the UK. Again, I was uncomfortable at first, but I adjusted because I value the friendship.

I am at a loss as to why people feel that their discomfort is the overriding factor in any situation. Sometimes, it's the uncomfortable one who needs to make an adjustment.

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#55

Post by timwis »

Hi everyone! Just a friendly reminder that as a community of largely white, highly educated, [male](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=591309) [millennials](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2175588), we have some blindspots: areas we cannot see that we do not know we cannot see.

When we read an article like this, it's natural to put yourself in the shoes of the people it's about, and imagine if you'd have reacted the same way. As empathetic as we may each feel we are, this process still involves projecting a magnitude of assumptions about the other person's experience which we simply cannot know. We naturally assume that people experience life _generally_ the same way we do: sure, their circumstances may be different, but we're all equal and we all make choices basically the same way.

But it isn't true. We each see the world through a series of lenses, and it's not really possible to remove those lenses. The best we can do is be aware of the lenses, and that other people have different lenses.

I'm not suggesting this article is right or wrong; just that those of us who feel very strongly about it in one direction or the other should, perhaps, acknowledge that theirs is not the _only_ legitimate perspective.

If you're interested in learning more about lenses, privilege, and why we often feel defencive when confronted by it, I highly recommend [this book](https://www.amazon.com/White-Fragility-People-About-Racism/d...).

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#56

Post by JohnStrangeII »

icebraining wrote: post #30
JohnStrangeII wrote: post #16

In my opinion, there should be no rules for such basic social interactions, neither rules for regulating the touching nor rules for regulating the reaction to it. It's not just a matter of personal freedom not to have such rules, human behavior cannot and should not be regulated in such ways. Every human interaction enforces or is based on existing norms anyway, but these change over time and fixed rules would preven…

Since you're distinguishing rules from norms and laws, can you describe what kind of rules are you talking about?

The kind of rules the Washington Post article talks about, i.e., explicitly formulated rules that are supposed to regulate behavior but are not (yet) laws. The article contrasts this to "unwritten rules", by which they seem to mean social norms and/or conventions. Social norms are usually not explicitly formulated and codified and if they are, they still exist independently of that formulation insofar as they are internalized by a significant number of members of a group. They evolve organically out of actual social interactions.

How exactly they evolve, what distinguishes social norms from conventions, and their relation to institutions, these are highly controversial topics. I'd personally recommend Cristina Bicchieri's taxonomy and approach, but there are other theories out there. In any case, it seemed clear to me that the WP article didn't talk about social norms - you cannot just decide what social norm is to be in place, these evolve independently and can be more or less stable -, and the WP article doesn't talk about laws only either. It seems to be based on the idea that written codes that are not laws should complement laws and replace actual social norms as kind of guidelines of how to behave, and I reject this idea for many reasons, including many moral ones.

To summarize my reasons very briefly: Everybody has a right to be an asshole and not every undesirable or unwanted behavior is also immoral. I'm very unhappy about the apparent trend (which seems to mostly exist in the US only) of not being able to distinguish between criminal behavior, immoral behavior, generally undesirable behavior, and personally unwanted behavior. These are all different things and mixing them up leads to a lot of confusion.

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#57

Post by Veen »

DanBC wrote: post #43
JohnStrangeII wrote: post #16

In my opinion, there should be no rules for such basic social interactions, neither rules for regulating the touching nor rules for regulating the reaction to it. It's not just a matter of personal freedom not to have such rules, human behavior cannot and should not be regulated in such ways. Every human interaction enforces or is based on existing norms anyway, but these change over time and fixed rules would preven…

The rule is "ask for permission before toucing someone else". I find it weird that you've escalated this into some huge thing that infringes upon your freedoms. Keep your fucking hands off my body.

Have you considered that your discomfort with social touching is indicative of personal issues that you need to address, rather than demanding a monumental shift in social norms to align everyone's behaviour with your idiosyncratic preferences.

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#58

Post by _jal »

sethammons wrote: post #21
_jal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it really isn't hard to avoid touching someone who doesn't like it. If simple accommodations like that are a "slippery slope", I'd suggest a little empathy.

Obviously, if you know someone doesn't like a thing, you can avoid doing that thing. It is quite common for some people who just met to clasp a shoulder or similar. It provides extra social comfort and connectivity. I'd suggest a little empathy for those seeking human connection in a socially positive way. Hmm. Seems that empathy thing goes both ways.

Touch is a primal thing. There's a reason fights start over it. It can communicate a large range of things, including dominance and aggression.

You don't go to the home of someone you just met and "make yourself at home" the same way you do with yours, and you don't touch without knowing how it will be received. You might pull back a stump.

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#59

Post by JohnStrangeII »

DanBC wrote: post #43
JohnStrangeII wrote: post #16

In my opinion, there should be no rules for such basic social interactions, neither rules for regulating the touching nor rules for regulating the reaction to it. It's not just a matter of personal freedom not to have such rules, human behavior cannot and should not be regulated in such ways. Every human interaction enforces or is based on existing norms anyway, but these change over time and fixed rules would preven…

The rule is "ask for permission before toucing someone else". I find it weird that you've escalated this into some huge thing that infringes upon your freedoms. Keep your fucking hands off my body.

The point is that everybody already constantly enforces his/her own rules by socially interacting with others and giving the respective feedback. There is no need for someone else to enforce your rules or write them down.

The funny thing is that the same bullshit the WP article talks about already existed in the past, in the form of etiquette books like the Knigge or Emily Post and schools for good manners and etiquette. I firmly believe we can do without that nonsense.

Re: Some people are uncomfortable with touchers. Should they set the rules?

#60

Post by seba_dos1 »

Veen wrote: post #54
seba_dos1 wrote: post #41

I don't really mind being touched, but it's definitely rather strange and I don't know why would I touch others like that. Why do some people feel such a need? It's not polite, it's... awkward.

Because many people enjoy casual social touching. Personally, I find it pleasing when someone gives my arm a squeeze or gives me a hug when I am leaving. But I would find it awkward to be asked "Do I have consent to sqeeze your arm". For me, and for many people, touch is a comforting gesture of affection and I'd be sad if people felt that they couldn't interact with me in that way. I'm English and we don't do much ca…

I find it pleasing too, but it's strange nevertheless. That strange feeling goes away when the person that does it is not an emotional stranger anymore - I'm touching my partner all the time and she touches me too because we know each other and we know that we like and accept (or even expect) it.

My friends get to know me and can safely interact with me in many ways other people can't and with them we can get really touchy (or not, depending on the person). From others, I do expect that "do I have consent" question. It sounded strange for me too in the past, but I've actually been in places where such questions are a social norm and in practice they work really well. I'm a kind of person who always replies "yes" anyway, but thanks to that question the awkwardness somewhat goes away.

The only sane alternative to asking that question is not touching at all until becoming emotionally connected.

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