What design tools get wrong • Hacker News Board

Re: What design tools get wrong

#51

Post by reaperducer » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

ebg13 wrote: post #29

jasim wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

"People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't.

And as long as Microsoft keeps shipping IE11, we're all doomed. Office drones aren't going to switch to something better until they're forced to.

I can't believe Windows 10 still has IE11.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#52

Post by baddox » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

ebg13 wrote: post #29

jasim wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

> "People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't.

I mean, I agree that developers shouldn't feel entitled to have all potential visitors using the most up-to-date software, but it is also definitely true that there is almost never an excuse to be using a web browser that doesn't automatically update. Forget CSS features, it's a pretty big security concern.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#53

Post by zapzupnz » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:27 PM UTC

jasim wrote: post #50

zelon88 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would never work with a design person who only knew how to click buttons to make UI's. They're just going to make more work for the real developers who have to constantly fill in the lack of understanding about how the back-end works. It isn't a limitation. It's a prerequisite. You wouldn't want a bus driver who's never driven a car before. And if design systems ever evolve to the point where you can just click/dra…

On the reverse, let designers refuse to work with developers who have never observed users using their product (user research in formal terms), or don't understand color theory, or haven't designed a landing page that converts well, don't know how to use Sketch or Figma. I've been trying to learn how to do design well - struggling to get the onboarding UX for a complex workflow right. It is something very difficult f…

> but it is partly the fault of programmers who don't expect the effort to understand how design is done and what "good" looks like in that craft

Very much something I agree with. Even on HN, when a non-designer has made something with a GUI, you'll often hear the excuses along the lines of "well, don't blame me if it's ugly, I'm not a designer".

Then you shouldn't have deigned to make something with a UI until you've run it past someone first. You land up with these utilities and apps that are intended to be used by regular, non-technical people that are just complicated and unwieldy Office '97 collections of tiny, unusable buttons that don't make any bloody sense to anyone.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#54

Post by baddox » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

holy_city wrote: post #49

jasim wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. It is easy to criticize something if you don't have to worry how you would do it better. That said, HTML & CSS is just how the world currently is. It doesn't mean that it is the best possi…

>When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible Short answer: layout and styling in one DSL with one syntax/grammar and not you know, two. But the problem isn't "how do I make something that's better" but "how do I make something that's…

What are some good examples? I remember using Android's relative layout system several years ago, and it was quite powerful, but I wouldn't call it easier to grok than CSS flex or grid.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#55

Post by chadcmulligan » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:37 PM UTC

HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #39

erikpukinskis wrote: post #23

Somewhat off topic, but this gets at an issue with “components” of all types that I’ve been wanting to get off my chest: > Design libraries are also limited in the type of things they share: just components or symbols. This works great if all your design work is just clicking together new screens with the same components, but anything new will see designers clicking into components and copying over things like colors…

This is why I've been holding off on trying to develop cross-platform software that talks to microcontrollers and then executes code- because I want the UI / GUI experience to be fluid, and for things like selecting something you want to change to highlight that element on the board itself- there's no well-defined method for doing this, nor even a once-trod path, and definitely not anything for those who don't know w…

Delphi? It has cross platform for iOS, Android, Windows, OSX, also server side on Linux. If you're after microcontrollers, it has a good sized group of IoT users.https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi

Re: What design tools get wrong

#56

Post by bshacklett » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:38 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #51

ebg13 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

"People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't. And as long as Microsoft keeps shipping IE11, we're all doomed. Office drones aren't going to switch to something better until they're forced to. I can't believe Windows 10 still has IE11.

Windows 10 doesn't have IE 11 as the primary browser, and I'm not sure it ever has.

IE is there for compatibility in enterprise environments. There are a lot of large organizations which still rely on older versions of SAP, Oracle and IBM applications, plus whatever ungodly niche vertical apps or in-house garbage was written back in the 90s.

Microsoft has to cater to this environment because it's been the lifeblood of the company for ages.

It's not all doom and gloom, though. I've had experience in some very large organizations, lately, which prefer Chrome. The landscape is beginning to change, but it will be a while, still, before evergreen browsers are the norm in the corporate world.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#57

Post by andrei_says_ » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:56 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #52

ebg13 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

> "People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't. I mean, I agree that developers shouldn't feel entitled to have all potential visitors using the most up-to-date software, but it is also definitely true that there is almost never an excuse to be using a web browser that doesn't automatically upda…

Financial, healthcare and gov institutions all have locked down workstations, often running ie 11 on windows 7.

Representing the very people who have the capacity to spend millions of $$ on my product.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#58

Post by Aeolun » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 10:56 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #51

ebg13 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

"People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't. And as long as Microsoft keeps shipping IE11, we're all doomed. Office drones aren't going to switch to something better until they're forced to. I can't believe Windows 10 still has IE11.

Office drones don’t have a choice either. What browser to use is fully based on inertia.

If there are 20 products that work in IE11, you won’t switch to Chrome just for your 21 product.

Re: What design tools get wrong

#59

Post by Aeolun » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 11:02 PM UTC

zapzupnz wrote: post #53

jasim wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the reverse, let designers refuse to work with developers who have never observed users using their product (user research in formal terms), or don't understand color theory, or haven't designed a landing page that converts well, don't know how to use Sketch or Figma. I've been trying to learn how to do design well - struggling to get the onboarding UX for a complex workflow right. It is something very difficult f…

> but it is partly the fault of programmers who don't expect the effort to understand how design is done and what "good" looks like in that craft Very much something I agree with. Even on HN, when a non-designer has made something with a GUI, you'll often hear the excuses along the lines of "well, don't blame me if it's ugly, I'm not a designer". Then you shouldn't have deigned to make something with a UI until you'v…

You can either have something ugly now. Or something well designed and beautiful never.

Which one do you want?

Re: What design tools get wrong

#60

Post by ebg13 » Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 11:05 PM UTC

baddox wrote: post #52

ebg13 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When someone says HTML & CSS is terrible I ask them to design something better that lets you represent user interfaces that can adapt across multiple screen sizes, and allow complex layouts that Flexbox and CSS Grid makes possible. Uh huh. And how many years did it take to actually get Flexbox and CSS Grid? I mean...They're both still "Candidate Recommendations" in 2019. That's not even the penultimate level of rec…

> "People should update their software to the latest versions! And they should switch browsers to use one that supports my nonstandard features!" Oh, yes? Well they don't. I mean, I agree that developers shouldn't feel entitled to have all potential visitors using the most up-to-date software, but it is also definitely true that there is almost never an excuse to be using a web browser that doesn't automatically upda…

I kinda sorta almost agree and yet that's definitely not how the world works for all kinds of reasons that aren't the user's fault. Also, I find it supes weird that you responded to that part and not the part where it took two entire decades of "tables are evil" before we got the first CSS grid implementation that isn't even a standard yet.