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The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

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Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#51

JRPGs look like yet another piece in the puzzle that so many things in contemporary Japanese popular culture seem to peak around the same time in the 90s (anime, fashion, popular music, industrial design etc). I’d guess this too is related to what Masachi Osawa calls the “fictional era” when the national psyche kind of turned inward to escapism and fantasy. I don’t see this talked about much in English or even Japane…

I suggest that from any given person's POV, popular media peaked during the time they were aged 15-25.

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#52
post #9
post #5

> Suffice to say, the average PS1 JRPG contains a very archetypal story. I'm not sure how others feel but to me I've definitely noticed a much stronger emphasis on wowing visual effects in today's RPG's and a much weaker focus on the story and plot lines as was the case in past games.

In the case of the Final Fantasy games, I agree. The latest one is just garbage, story-wise despite being absolutely beautiful.

AFAIK FFXV had a much better story planned out; but they were pushed to release it half-baked, so they cut out a bunch of content to make it smaller-but-semi-coherent, planning to add all the extra context back in the form of DLC. But then the first DLC didn't sell amazingly well, and the rest just got cancelled :(

(Pretty much the same thing that happened to Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, also by Square Enix...)

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#53
post #6

Sometimes I play retro games, and I feel like nostalgia makes us excuse what is plain bad design. I have that feeling every time I play an old JRPG. Many of them feel slow, clunky, with painful mechanics... as opposed to current games, which had the experience from decades to get refined. The argument in favour of this is that the bad and boring parts make the good bits even better, in a sort of stoic way, they feel…

> I have that feeling every time I play an old JRPG. Many of them feel slow, clunky, with painful mechanics... as opposed to current games, which had the experience from decades to get refined. It definitely depends a lot on what you're playing. Chrono Trigger has tighter, punchier pacing than practically any modern RPG. IIRC in the first couple hours you've visited two or three different areas, seen consequences of…

I agree on all of the above points, and your excellent choices in classic JRPGs.

Specifically on slowing things down in 3D RPGs, Final Fantasy VII was pretty fun, even if a little grindy, up until the endgame. But by this point, effective grinding consisted of summon spells, which meant watching the same 90 seconds of an unskippable cut scene over and over again. Like, I get how mind-blowing 3D was in that era, but it killed the pacing so much for me that I never bothered to finish the game. I hear some cool stuff happens with Sephiroth, or whatever.

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#54

Seeing the callout to Xenoblade's music drew me back to listening to that soundtrack again... whence I stumbled upon 8-bit Music Theory's channel, and analysis of Chrono Trigger's and FFVI's music... and that's to say nothing of Secret of Mana or a half-dozen other incredible JRPG soundtracks. I'm probably weird, but the music, more than just about anything, is what brings me back to these JRPG games again and again.…

Google "City Pop" I stumbled on to it a year or so ago, and it's pretty obvious how hard most classic video game music cribbed from it.

Reminds me a bit of how when I was a teen, Amiga demoscene and game music sounded like nothing else and contributed to my sense that the "computer world" was something apart. Then years later I found out about Italo Disco and Tangerine Dream.

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#55
post #6

Sometimes I play retro games, and I feel like nostalgia makes us excuse what is plain bad design. I have that feeling every time I play an old JRPG. Many of them feel slow, clunky, with painful mechanics... as opposed to current games, which had the experience from decades to get refined. The argument in favour of this is that the bad and boring parts make the good bits even better, in a sort of stoic way, they feel…

What sort of conclusion is there to be drawn when you have already labeled the older games as slow, clunky with painful mechanics and newer games as refined? :-P I've seen many people say (about games in general) that older games often have more depth in contrast of newer more "casualized" games that cater to the lowest common denominator as often as people say what you wrote. At the end is really about personal tast…

Some of them, not all. And of course it's just my opinion. You can rephrase it like this:

Slow, boring and clunky is actually good design that serves a purpose.

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#56
I've noticed a formulaic approach in Japanese video game development, where most games within a genre seem to have very similar mechanics as opposed to western made games. The RPG genre seems to be the most obvious example. If you take a modern JRPG (like one of the new Pokemon games for example) and compare it to an old Final Fantasy game from the NES there are a lot of similarities in the mechanics, like random encounters & combat, the way NPC dialogue is implemented, inventory management etc.

Now I'm not saying that they are identical games or that there hasn't been no innovation but to me it seems that for different Japanese games within a genre, there's usually one or two features that are done differently to stand out from the mass and everything else is done "like it's always been done". It seems like the thought process is something like: "RPGs consist of these features so we must have these features in the game for it to be an RPG".

Also I'm not saying that western games can't be or aren't formulaic, but if you take an old Ultima game from the 80's and compare that to modern western RPGs like Skyrim or Witcher or Diablo it seems very different, mechanics wise. Or if you take the Mass Effect trilogy and look at just the inventory management in them it is very different in each game. It seems to me like western developers are more eager to (sometimes unsuccessfully) improve, replace and/or reinvent gaming mechanics and they also are not afraid to blur the lines between genres. Many games from different genres seem to have, for example, at least some RPG elements in them these days.

I'm not implying that one way is better than another, that's a matter of taste. It's just an interesting point that I personally have noticed. It's especially interesting when you think that when not "chained" to a specific genre, Japanese developers can come up with something completely unheard of like Katamari Damacy for example.

Has anyone else noticed this or am I just imagining things?

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#57
post #52
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of the Final Fantasy games, I agree. The latest one is just garbage, story-wise despite being absolutely beautiful.

AFAIK FFXV had a much better story planned out; but they were pushed to release it half-baked, so they cut out a bunch of content to make it smaller-but-semi-coherent, planning to add all the extra context back in the form of DLC. But then the first DLC didn't sell amazingly well, and the rest just got cancelled :( (Pretty much the same thing that happened to Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, also by Square Enix...)

I only just played this game last summer/fall (I guess once it showed up for PC). While there were definitely enjoyable aspects and I played through the whole thing, it really did feel like half a game.

I'd played most of the NES/SNES/PS1 entries (some all the way through, some partially before getting sidetracked) and while the stories were often convoluted or just poorly localized, they were lengthy and had a lot to do.

The latest FF game looked great and I could deal with the sketchy plot logic but right around when the pacing suggested that I was getting to the "meat" of the game, it went on rails (in some aspects, literally). I was used to the idea of a long setup with a false sense of conclusion, right before it "hits the fan" and the big bad shows up/you end up in the world of ruin/whatever.

When this game went from the peaceful storyline and fun time world exploration with your buddies to "oh crap wtf shit is going down!" it was followed by a series of simpler missions in a few locations, then the end.

I don't even care that the ending itself made little sense unless you had watched some movie or whatever. I was mostly just bummed that the exploration, discovery, dialogue, etc. ended so abruptly so you could fast track to the inevitable showdown with the big bad (who was disappointingly the guy you were led to expect, not the usual fake-out where he was just a pawn of the real ultimate baddie).

Later I read the same thing about how the game was cut short (which also explained all of the locations marked on the map that you couldn't actually visit). Made total sense.

It's a shame they put it out like this. As I said, I only played the PC version which came out two years after the initial release but I would've loved it if they just waited until 2018 and put out the full product. I hadn't played one of these since maybe FFX in 2002 so it was kind of a bummer.

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#58
I just started playing Xenogears last Friday and do agree with the first few paragraphs of the article.

Stopped reading before halfway through when I realized it was getting spoilerish, though.

Playing this and Kingdom Hearts 3 back to back makes me realize that the charm some of the classics have is not pure nostalgia, but I still can't put my finger on it. Saying that, Persona 5 is a recent JRPG that I thoroughly enjoyed like those I played as a kid.

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#59

Seeing the callout to Xenoblade's music drew me back to listening to that soundtrack again... whence I stumbled upon 8-bit Music Theory's channel, and analysis of Chrono Trigger's and FFVI's music... and that's to say nothing of Secret of Mana or a half-dozen other incredible JRPG soundtracks. I'm probably weird, but the music, more than just about anything, is what brings me back to these JRPG games again and again.…

Google "City Pop" I stumbled on to it a year or so ago, and it's pretty obvious how hard most classic video game music cribbed from it.

I’m finding a lot of disco- and funk-influenced easy listening pop; am I listening to the wrong thing? Is there a particular song that would help me see the connection?

Re: The Archetypal Resonance of Classic JRPGs

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google "City Pop" I stumbled on to it a year or so ago, and it's pretty obvious how hard most classic video game music cribbed from it.

I’m finding a lot of disco- and funk-influenced easy listening pop; am I listening to the wrong thing? Is there a particular song that would help me see the connection?

Most Castlevania games since playstation era: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ljSD1rZzUE

Pieces of Sonic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0g79mTyjE0

Bits of Xenoblade Chronicles (esp gaur plains): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8xfT4l2Gnw

UMN / cities in various Xenosaga installments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cj8yrPSo_Q

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