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I’m only making business card sized games now

frankforce.com

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Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#51
post #5
post #3

> We all know that modern games have become bloated, weighed down by useless features, achievements, anti piracy measures, piles of assets, and other junk. Not only that but developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? I am not sure that it's fair to compare a…

I think he’s making an argument that you can make games with much less code than we do now, not a serious argument that we should only make games that fit on a business card.

Thank you for understanding!

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

I’m not anti-games, but as I went through college and then started working full time I found I first ran out of time for games and later had lost most of my interest. Now a days I feel like I get more value from exercising, socializing (which can include playing games on the same tv!), or need to do other things (chores, projects), so I can see where the sentiment that games are “a waste of time” can come from.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#53
post #3

> We all know that modern games have become bloated, weighed down by useless features, achievements, anti piracy measures, piles of assets, and other junk. Not only that but developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? I am not sure that it's fair to compare a…

>developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? Hard to feel too bad about people working on leisure products. I'm sure if you swapped out Golf/NASCAR, people here would be less sympathetic.

I've watched lives literally be ruined by this industry. Why is it hard to feel bad for them just because they were doing what they loved and got shit on?

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

I for one love video games. When done right, they are my favorite art form. I am "anti" any game that uses psychological tricks to get me to keep playing. And for stuff like Celeste, Gris, and Hellblade and Portal that keep me engaged by providing an inherently fulfilling experience.

Celeste was incredible. Can't wait for the free DLC! Have you played A Hat in Time yet?

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#56

When I was a kid in the 1970's games came in a credit card sized form factor. Pacman, donkey Kong, (MAME types of games). We all had a bunch of these games with us in our bags. Each device could play one specific game.

I remember the orange coloured casing for the donkey kong game we had in the house. It was my mothers, and I eventually grew up with the original Game Boy. But it was my first game device and I played it religiously.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

I think some games do have a dark side, crafted by the creators to hook into the psyche of the players.

I talked to a developer of a popular free-to-play game, and he told me of many of the psychological hooks they use in their game.

Exploitation of hoarding behavior, community fame for specific players, random occurrences that are carefully scripted, etc.

Nowadays it's hard to find games free of ulterior motives.

Yes, addictive games and personalities have always existed, but now there's money mixed in.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#58
post #3

> We all know that modern games have become bloated, weighed down by useless features, achievements, anti piracy measures, piles of assets, and other junk. Not only that but developers are constantly taken advantage of, made to crunch for no pay, mass layoffs, etc. Lives have been ruined, and for what? So you could watch your horse poop or play dominoes in an open world game? I am not sure that it's fair to compare a…

> I've played something like 1500 hours of Overwatch that I bought for $30. The depth of the game is just spectacular, and it keeps you coming back to play more. They add new heroes and new maps regularly. The core game itself is fun. I've made many friends. I met my girlfriend in that game.

A lot of people could say many of the same things about Nethack -- or MUDs. Neither of which are business-card-sized, but they're closer to that extreme than to the AAA extreme.

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

Anti games? Most triple A games are interactive movies with no systems.

When video games lack actual gamification, people that enjoy depth, challenge, and systems design are likely to be jaded.

I mean look at something like the original deus ex. There is not a single modern game that could even approach the level of immersion and depth that it offered.

A lot of people grew up playing real "games" in the truest sense of the word- meaning there are rules, challenges, and twists other that "shoot bad guy". The other thing missing is player choice. Most modern games offer ZERO choice to the player, or faux choice with zero consequence or effect on the game world.

Hence people are revisiting game design and exposing the irony that you can make a much deeper game with very little resources compared to the flashy yet vapid "games" being pumped out by the big publishers.

It shows, too. Look at how badly EA and co are doing. Turns out alienating actual gamers to appeal to the masses isn't a great long term strategy. On the flipside, look at the mini renaissance we are having with indie games. I've had more enjoyment from no name companies for the past 5 years than from any bloated publisher.

Is it really outlandish for people who grew up loving games to be upset with what is happening to the medium?

Re: I’m only making business card sized games now

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally reject "hours of enjoyment" as a metric for value and depth of a purchased game. It's good to hear that you've had positive experiences, but the dark side is that for many it drifts towards being an addictive time-suck that eats money for nothing in return.

When did this opinion start taking such a hold? Out of all places, I didn’t think HN would be so anti-games but I’ve been seeing more and more people saying this here. Could someone who feels this way expand on why they have such a negative view on games? Just curious if it’s personal, cultural, or something else? Also, is it directed at complex games with storylines, online multiplayer, or mobile games meant to pull…

I’ve held a similar opinion for a long time now, but not from an anti-game perspective; enjoyment is simply an overloaded term, and trivial to hack (want to make a nearly any mediocre game enjoyable? Play it with friends.) It often just amounts to “I was content to lose N hours into it”, which on its own is a pretty worthless statement (and if its the only statement, a pretty damning one).

Games are often treated as, and judged as, timesinks. A good game is simply a good timesink. A good timesink makes use of addictive/gambling mechanics. And most games rely heavily on them (sometimes unintentionally; this is likely less true the closer you get to today).

But in my opinion games can be a lot more interesting than that, and “enjoyable” is a crass description of it. For example, I probably put over 2000 hours into league of legends when I was younger, but those hours were mostly a waste. Back then, I described it as enjoyable. Now I realize I never cared about LoL, I just had my social life there. The game was never actually good, and what little I actually think of it is only about the human components (and a little about how not to design a competitive game). The 15 hours I put into star control 2 were far more valuable (if only because it informed me how little, if not backwards, we progressed from it to mass effect, in terms of game design).

I have a negative opinion on games, but its because I like them. Most games are shit, and the industry has mostly been getting worse over time.

Also out of your three, I know you were referring to “complex games with storylines” as the “good” type, but taking a random lottery, multiplayer games are the only ones with any reasonable hope of actually being interesting, mostly by accident. Most “complex games” are completely superficial; multiplayer games naturally bring depth by “cheating” — the humans bring 90% of it.

But I like games. Theoretically. Sometimes, in practice.

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