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Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

nytimes.com

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Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#51

Post by krapp »

tormeh wrote: post #36
joe_the_user wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always been impressed by an odd contrast within theories of this sort. The theories posit that the government acted illegally in various ways. But at the same time, the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey. Yet what force would cause this deeper law to prevail if the state was committed to its conspiracy? Of course, this sort of thing could…

I dunno. Germany has the same kind of thing. Search for "Reichsbürger". Essentially these people reject the modern German nation, and say they belong to one reich or another - either the Kaiserreich or the Nazi one. What these conspiracy people don't get is that a nation exists as a consequence of its subjects and warriors loyalty to it and obedience of it. It's just a power structure. All the legalities and voting a…

Or as attorney Leonard French said regarding one Sovereign Citizen case on his Lawful Masses podcast[0]:

"We live in reality, where the four laws are not common law, statutory, code and... whatever. The real laws are the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity. Everything else is fair game."

[0]https://youtu.be/nqPiQiinDTs?t=3143

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#52

Post by AstralStorm »

krapp wrote: post #51
tormeh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. Germany has the same kind of thing. Search for "Reichsbürger". Essentially these people reject the modern German nation, and say they belong to one reich or another - either the Kaiserreich or the Nazi one. What these conspiracy people don't get is that a nation exists as a consequence of its subjects and warriors loyalty to it and obedience of it. It's just a power structure. All the legalities and voting a…

Or as attorney Leonard French said regarding one Sovereign Citizen case on his Lawful Masses podcast[0]: "We live in reality, where the four laws are not common law, statutory, code and... whatever. The real laws are the strong nuclear force, the weak nuclear force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity. Everything else is fair game." [0] https://youtu.be/nqPiQiinDTs?t=3143

The list is not exhaustive, we're looking for loopholes all the time.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#53

Post by AstralStorm »

crooked-v wrote: post #40
mindslight wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the theories posit that despite this, there is some deeper framework of law that the government still has to obey Isn't this the spirit of hacking in general? Of course, they're trying to hack a system rooted in fundamentals that undermine hacking. So rather than a vulnerability leading to a "full compromise", the best that can be obtained is a minor advantage.

When you apply "hacking" to the law, if you don't already know what you're doing very well, it usually ends up called "fraud". https://xkcd.com/1494/

Also embezzlement or violation of tax code. Sometimes even racketeering.

Re: Sovereign Citizens Helped Swindle $1B from the Government They Disavow

#54

Post by AstralStorm »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #16
habnds wrote: post #5

> Sovereigns, who sometimes call themselves “freemen” or “state citizens,” have no foundational document, but broadly they subscribe to an alternate version of American history. The tale can vary from sovereign to sovereign, but it goes roughly like this: At some point, a corporation secretly usurped the United States government, then went bankrupt and sought aid from international bankers. As collateral, the corpora…

Sovereigns start out by taking the classroom taught non-controversial idea of self determination to its logical extreme (every individual a country unto themselves). They don't need a foundational document because they believe that not answering to anyone is the natural state and therefore needs no deceleration. They further conclude that unnatural states (re: being born into someone else's rule) must be the result o…

Ultimately, the limit of someone's freedom is violence or contract (including concord).

It is silly to assume you can evade any given state forever unless you actually want to live like a hermit. Or start from scratch, like Americans of old, and even they had to fight and lose wars.

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