Software Engineer's fallacy: if all you have is software/programming skills you start to look for an open source linux based solution to holding wooden boards in place, one that doesn't vendor lock you into the iron ore. With Windows vs Linux the premise was you install absolutely free software on a computer you already own and you end up with a superior computing and programming environment. With k8s - you switched…
With k8s - you switched to it, now what? You have to buy server hardware, rent or build a room, run wires for electricity and broadband, build cooling, physical security, etc etc etc. I'm not sure that's the choice. You can run kubernetes in the cloud, can't you? e.g. EKS on Amazon.
‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
51–60 of 112 posts
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#52In my experience AWS is the huge waste of time. I spent years on and off effectively building poor implementations of k8s to make AWS digestible to developers. If you work in "IT" rather than infrastructure for a large software company you might not have experienced this as internal IT is more static and easy to run on AWS/VMWare/whatever. For me k8s finally signals moving beyond that problem and onto more interestin…
I've hardly looked at k8s, it looked like a pain to get a docker-compose file running in it the last time I looked. I think there was a tool to translate it to something kubernetes could deal with. That said, after the last four months I've had of trying to get Route53, API Gateway, Lambdas, ECS, VPCs, Cognito, DynamoDB, S3, CloudFront, etc, etc running in CloudFormation I really can't imagine it's worse under any sl…
k8s definitely helps with the "all my apps stuff in one place that is easy to see". There are some pitfalls to avoid though. Don't use helm, it's bad for your health. Avoid deploying your own k8s cluster unless you really need to, just use GKE. Avoid custom resource definitions unless they are well supported, migrating off them can be hard - prefer tools that look at annotations etc (like external-dns, cert-manager and friends).
Of course things get difficult when you need statefulsets to run things like Kafka/ZK and friends but it's definitely possible and they run well once setup.
In my mind k8s is the only option right now that doesn't result in man-years being wasted on pointless AWS bullshit.
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#53The article forgets about Azure or GCP. I know that AWS is the most popular, but you shouldn't forget about those 2. From the article it seems like there are AWS and nothing else, which is obviously not true. And Azure is backed by Microsoft, GCP is backed by Google, so if "Bezos loses his mind" there will be other alternatives besides Kubernetes.
You missed the point that moving from AWS to GCP or Azure is going to be _extremely_ complex and expensive if you have used all those shiny AWS platform features. It is very easy if you are using k8s.
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#54I have the need to do business using computers: use AWS.
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#55I'm not really following, perhaps it's too early here. AWS is a cloud provider, Kubernetes is container orchestration software. Here's a crazy thing, we do K8S on AWS.
K8S is the commoditization of of Amazon's compute infrastructure. This standardizes it and makes it easier to switch and to build vendor independent tooling around it. Of course the strategy of AWS now at least be the first two parts of the old Microsoft strategy with regards to open standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... (Hopefully not the third part.) There is still lots that Ama…
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#56Software Engineer's fallacy: if all you have is software/programming skills you start to look for an open source linux based solution to holding wooden boards in place, one that doesn't vendor lock you into the iron ore. With Windows vs Linux the premise was you install absolutely free software on a computer you already own and you end up with a superior computing and programming environment. With k8s - you switched…
With k8s - you switched to it, now what? You have to buy server hardware, rent or build a room, run wires for electricity and broadband, build cooling, physical security, etc etc etc. I'm not sure that's the choice. You can run kubernetes in the cloud, can't you? e.g. EKS on Amazon.
It also talks about building a personal data center quite a few times (at least that's how I read it).
K8s is likely to replace EC2, ECS, and all other unusable amazon bloat to become the default AWS API. But it's not going to damage AWS, it's going to enhance it and become part of it.
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#57The author put scare quotes around the "real workloads" AWS can handle/solve for. I'm not sure the author really has the experience to know what real big workloads look like. OpenBet? Barclays? Doesn't sound like a background in large scale technical problems that gets to sneer at the workload sizes of others.
I'll admit my biases -- I used to work at AWS and I'm a happy customer. But if you don't understand it or don't have the appropriate technical needs for that level of infrastructure, don't try to draw such a poor analogy and make really weird claims.
> There are limits on all sorts of resources that help define what you can and can’t achieve.
Huh? Yeah, of course... Certain tools have certain purposes, built to solve specific problems. Kind of like the UNIX philosophy. Do one thing and do it well. You know about the UNIX philosophy, right? Limits? Everything has limits.
> In the same way, some orgs get to the point where they could see benefits from building their own data centres again. Think Facebook, or for a full switcher, Dropbox. (We’ll get back to this).
You should build your own data center if it is strategically advantageous for your company to be in the data center business. I'd argue that Facebook is in the data center business mostly for historical and timing reasons, and that for Dropbox, it actually might be a strategic advantage because they're basically, uh, an infrastructure company.
> Which brings us to AWS’s relationship with Kubernetes. It’s no secret that AWS doesn’t see the point of it.
Actually, I do think it's a secret. It must be your little secret to yourself, though, because I don't think anyone else thinks this. Could it just be that building a product takes time and people?
> IAM is the true source of AWS lock-in (and Lambda is the lock-in technology par excellence. You can’t move a server if there are none you can see).
Have you ever even built anything on cloud infrastructure? Doesn't seem like it from your writing. Lock-in is a really uncharitable synonym for "solves a difficult problem well."
Also, Lambda is about the easiest thing to migrate I can think of. Its surface area that your code touches is remarkably small, by design. If anything, it's fairly clear there were many opportunities for Lambda to make product decisions that could've really locked customers in -- which they elected not to take.
(Typed on a phone, forgive typos.)
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#58In my experience AWS is the huge waste of time. I spent years on and off effectively building poor implementations of k8s to make AWS digestible to developers. If you work in "IT" rather than infrastructure for a large software company you might not have experienced this as internal IT is more static and easy to run on AWS/VMWare/whatever. For me k8s finally signals moving beyond that problem and onto more interestin…
I've hardly looked at k8s, it looked like a pain to get a docker-compose file running in it the last time I looked. I think there was a tool to translate it to something kubernetes could deal with. That said, after the last four months I've had of trying to get Route53, API Gateway, Lambdas, ECS, VPCs, Cognito, DynamoDB, S3, CloudFront, etc, etc running in CloudFormation I really can't imagine it's worse under any sl…
Re: ‘AWS vs. K8s’ Is the New ‘Windows vs. Linux’
#59This one thousand times over. Lots of companies have multi-cloud on their strategy but when it's time to actually implement it they find that the cost to adopt hyperscaler #2 is just the same or even more as they spent on integrating hyperscaler #1. While Kubernetes makes workloads portable between vendors, organizational processes for "boring" chores like IAM, tenant provisioning and billing/chargeback aren't. Integration of these processes can get really expensive if you need to re-implement basic "enterprise" process like e.g. four-eyes-principle/seperation of duty on role assignments for each of your cloud vendors and technologies. The IAM systems differ ever so slightly across vendors and that brings a ton of complexity.
The larger the company, the more likely it is that the real bottleneck to cloud adoption is on these processes, not the technology. I know it's hard to imagine if you're coming from a startup background where you can just take the company credit card and get an account on AWS, GCP or Azure in a second. But for developers in big co., acquiring a public cloud account may take months and forms over forms of paperwork, getting roles put into the central corporate directory etc. The investment into these (often atrocious) processes for hyperscaler #1 create a big lock-in.
Disclaimer: I'm a founder at Meshcloud, we build a multi-cloud platform that helps organizations consistently implement organizational processes like IAM, SSO, landing zone configurations etc. across cloud vendors and platforms.