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Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

nytimes.com

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Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#51

Post by jhall1468 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #37
ceejayoz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.

I'm okay with EV's getting a "discount" since they create less pollution. Gas vehicles can pay more than their fair share towards road repairs in exchange for the damage they're doing to the environment. If there are eventually too many EV's to generate any road repair revenue, we can re-assess then. For now, the incentive structure makes sense, and should be increased if anything.

It's not a discount, it's free. And given the price of EV's, you're not just suggesting a regressive tax, your suggesting a regressive tax where near the top of the tax bracket pays no taxes.

EV's already have plenty of tax incentives. Taxes need to be both a stick and a carrot. EV's get a carrot, all drivers get a stick.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#52

Post by Daishiman »

teslaberry wrote: post #24

i've lived in manhattan since 1993. never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups with guaranteed income , i.e. bureaucracy. having been a cyclist my wholelife, since childhood. i have no faith in the government to implement sensible policy. i have faith in them to tax more. and more , and more. uber and lyft have been DISASTERS for new york, but they were inevitable because of the disaster that was the…

It works in literally every other large city I. The world so there's no reason to think NY is special in some way such that it won't.

This ridiculous cynism is counterproductive and defeatist. We know a fair bit about effective urban policy.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#53

Post by BurningFrog »

wyldfire wrote: post #45
BurningFrog wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying for using something isn't usually considered a tax. Do you think of buying a subway ticket as a tax on travel?

It's considered a use tax, like the existing gasoline taxes used to fund roads and highway tolls.

The difference is that the subway ticket directly finances your subway ride. It's just like how a private subway company would have financed it, so calling it a "tax" just because the train is run by a government entity is a bit weird.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#54

Post by baddox »

jchanimal wrote: post #5
hourislate wrote: post #2

I'm indifferent and glad I don't live there but why not just charge what it should cost to use Public Transportation/Subways? Why look for ways to subsidize it by taxing everything else but the people who use it?

Generally you want to tax things you want less of and subsidize what you want more of. Hence taxing car traffic and subsidizing transit.

I don’t know if I like your model. I would say tax things in order to remove negative externalities, then people will decide what they want more of.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#55

Post by frosted-flakes »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #32
d3ad1ysp0rk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? "Though state leaders have not ironed out details, they had reached consensus on Monday that the plan was necessary to help pay for much-needed repairs to the city’s beleaguered subway system."

That's the sales pitch. The reality is that much of the money will disappear down the bureaucratic black hole with nothing to show for in the end. Byford isn't going to fix the entrenched corruption.

Andy Byford did a lot of good in Toronto before was grabbed by the MTA.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#56

Post by baddox »

ceejayoz wrote: post #14
acton10 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasoline/Petrol taxes are probably your best analog if you want people to pay in proportion to how much they're driving.

Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.

Shouldn’t gasoline taxes just cover the direct negative externalities of gasoline, namely the environmental and health impact of creating and then burning the gasoline?

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#57

Post by JumpCrisscross »

BurningFrog wrote: post #53
wyldfire wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's considered a use tax, like the existing gasoline taxes used to fund roads and highway tolls.

The difference is that the subway ticket directly finances your subway ride. It's just like how a private subway company would have financed it, so calling it a "tax" just because the train is run by a government entity is a bit weird.

> the subway ticket directly finances your subway ride

Money is fungible. The MTA budget most recently subsidised upstate boondoggles.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#58

Post by baddox »

acton10 wrote: post #22
ceejayoz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not with the strides we've been making in fuel efficiency. An EV pays no gasoline taxes, but has similar impact on the roads to any other car. Now, EVs are a good thing... but they do expose issues with paying for transport via gas taxes.

That's fair I didn't think about EVs. For now their adoption rate is low enough that Gas Taxes are still a decent stand in (~2-4% it sounds like with quick googling). https://bnef.turtl.co/story/evo2018?teaser=true In the future though it probably will be a bigger problem. I suppose you could add similar sales taxes to public paid charging stations, but without separately metering home charging you'll probably still…

Do gas taxes even pay for the negative environmental and health externalities of producing and burning the gas, regardless of road wear? I don’t have a source, but I highly doubt they do.

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#59

Post by snissn »

I literally don't understand what this is and how it will work. It's like ez pass for certain zones of nyc? Will it only be for certain hours? Will they bill from traffic cameras? "Congestion pricing" is a brand new term to me and I don't see a clean definition.. Sorry if I missed it in the article

Re: Congestion Pricing in Manhattan Close to Approval

#60

Post by baddox »

crazygringo wrote: post #25
hourislate wrote: post #2

I'm indifferent and glad I don't live there but why not just charge what it should cost to use Public Transportation/Subways? Why look for ways to subsidize it by taxing everything else but the people who use it?

Why not tax people directly per meter of sidewalk they walk on? Why not tax them for each call they make to 911, or charge them each time they walk into a public park? Because certain things are considered to be public goods, to greater or lesser extent, and therefore to follow the principle behind progressive taxation: that people aren't taxed by how much they use them, but that the rich pay far more in absolute ter…

If there’s an efficient and reliable way to tax usage directly, I think that’s always the better alternative. Social benefits like police, firefighting, 911 service, etc. are intended to be paid for with wealth distribution, at least to cover the least fortunate members of society (whether ones agrees with that policy is another matter).

But roads don’t really work like that. There’s no “social benefit” that wouldn’t already be priced into everything that derived benefit from the roads. If government road subsidies make road freight cheaper, charging those freight companies for their own usage would make prices reflect actual costs. We could still have redistributive social benefits for things like the road wear caused by police cars, but again, that’s a separate issue.

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