‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#51

Post by chii » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 8:32 AM UTC

ascar wrote: post #40

skrebbel wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My I ask what you studied and where? I'm curious because I did a Master's (CS) at a Dutch university (Eindhoven) and my experience was the total opposite. Lots of students were involved in extracurricular activities, there was time for study and time for fun, people generally seemed mostly relaxed. I'll concur that the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academi…

> the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academic theoretical computer science, which has at most 10% overlap with what programmers in industry do The important thing to remember is that the goal of an university is not to prepare you for what you do in industry, but to teach you fundamental knowledge about a topic that helps you adapt to new challenges (also i…

> The important thing to remember is that the goal of an university is not to prepare you for what you do in industry, but to teach you fundamental knowledge about a topic

that's an undergraduate degree. I would imagine a masters or graduate studies to not only teach that, but more (such as actual state of the art stuff).

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#52

Post by barry-cotter » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 8:34 AM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #48

omk wrote: post #17

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and…

In Europe, a Masters is not 'graduate' level. A masters (in Europe) is just a continuation of a bachelors, and someone graduating with just a bachelors is basically someone who's only half finished their education. Consequently, the work load is nowhere near as bad as it is at the PhD level (although even there, it's not that bad either). Of course this very closely aligns the bachelors and masters level courses, mea…

A Master’s is as much graduate level in Europe as in the US. If you go in expecting to do the same level of work you did in your Bachelor’s you might scrape a pass but that’s as well as you’re going to do.

This is not to deny there’s an enormous difference between doing research and doing coursework but an M.Phil. student is doing research much as a Ph.D. student is. They’re getting a Master’s as much as someone doing all coursework for an MBA.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#53

Post by dragos1984 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 8:35 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #46

digitalixus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing living and working in Europe (Germany) has taught me is that all countries are more or less the same. It's just how well the culture manages to mask the "unattractive" traits we love to criticize in places like China (or America, as of late), and the PR/propaganda campaign they run to convince everyone they're the best place on the planet. China is a prime example of subpar image/PR management. T…

> TLDR China is about as attractive as any other country on the planet, they just have subpar image management and PR at the moment Cool, why haven't you moved there?

Why would he move there? He said thst its the same as any other country, not that its better

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#54

Post by freyr » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 8:44 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #15

kodz4 wrote: post #2

Meanwhile in China we have 9-9-6. The US needs to wake up to whether it wants to stay in the game.

I recognize that this is anecdata but I worked together remotely with a engineers from the Shenzhen area a number of times, and they would have a 2 hour lunch plus a 2 hour afternoon nap (under their desks, on a couch, anywhere really) every day. Working from 9 to 9 sounds less heavy (and more fun!) that way. Maybe I met some lucky few, but if my impression of Chinese tech working culture is accurate, it's less insan…

> it's less insane than popularly reported.

So instead of spending time with your loved ones and living life, you sleep under a desk just to clock in your 12 hours at the office. Sorry, it doesn't seem any less insane.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#55

Post by digitalixus » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

valesco wrote: post #47

digitalixus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's one thing living and working in Europe (Germany) has taught me is that all countries are more or less the same. It's just how well the culture manages to mask the "unattractive" traits we love to criticize in places like China (or America, as of late), and the PR/propaganda campaign they run to convince everyone they're the best place on the planet. China is a prime example of subpar image/PR management. T…

I am relieved you didn't speak of totalitarianism, which you have ruined your whole argument.

The macro view of things (e.g. policies) doesn't bother me too much anymore. As mentioned, all countries are more or less shit (in their own unique way). It's what one experiences on the ground level in daily life that matters.

Is Germany that much better when you can get fined if you flip someone off (say an idiotic driver on the road) and there are contracts (where you're usually locked in for 2 years with autorenewal and requiring 3 or 6 months' notice to quit) for literally everything?

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#56

Post by skrebbel » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 9:00 AM UTC

omk wrote: post #39

skrebbel wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My I ask what you studied and where? I'm curious because I did a Master's (CS) at a Dutch university (Eindhoven) and my experience was the total opposite. Lots of students were involved in extracurricular activities, there was time for study and time for fun, people generally seemed mostly relaxed. I'll concur that the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academi…

This was a Data Science program by TU/e and Tilburg hosted in Den Bosch. To be very honest I saw friends at TU/e relating well with their program and even manging trips to Spain while the folks in my program very occupied with mostly procedural assignments and struggled to find time to go out for drinks. This could very well be a one off thing because my program had a huge number of drop-outs through the first and se…

Woa that's pretty shit. I'm well aware of the fanfare with which they announced that program so it disappoints me that your experience is so bad.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#57

Post by skrebbel » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 9:04 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #51

ascar wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academic theoretical computer science, which has at most 10% overlap with what programmers in industry do The important thing to remember is that the goal of an university is not to prepare you for what you do in industry, but to teach you fundamental knowledge about a topic that helps you adapt to new challenges (also i…

> The important thing to remember is that the goal of an university is not to prepare you for what you do in industry, but to teach you fundamental knowledge about a topic that's an undergraduate degree. I would imagine a masters or graduate studies to not only teach that, but more (such as actual state of the art stuff).

FWIW, my Master's did exactly that, but it was still fundamental state of the art stuff.

Like how to prove a huge complex distributed / multithreaded system deadlock free, or how to transform no complete problems into parameterized SAT expressions that SAT solvers can solve (which was pretty state of the art at the time). Those were super fun to learn and do, but I can't say I apply much of it at my company.

In other words, I agree both with you and the commenter you're replying to.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#58

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 9:05 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #33

omk wrote: post #17

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and…

My I ask what you studied and where? I'm curious because I did a Master's (CS) at a Dutch university (Eindhoven) and my experience was the total opposite. Lots of students were involved in extracurricular activities, there was time for study and time for fun, people generally seemed mostly relaxed. I'll concur that the program was a bit of an industry mismatch in that they don't teach software engineering but academi…

[deleted]

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#59

Post by skrebbel » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 9:07 AM UTC

freyr wrote: post #54

skrebbel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recognize that this is anecdata but I worked together remotely with a engineers from the Shenzhen area a number of times, and they would have a 2 hour lunch plus a 2 hour afternoon nap (under their desks, on a couch, anywhere really) every day. Working from 9 to 9 sounds less heavy (and more fun!) that way. Maybe I met some lucky few, but if my impression of Chinese tech working culture is accurate, it's less insan…

> it's less insane than popularly reported. So instead of spending time with your loved ones and living life, you sleep under a desk just to clock in your 12 hours at the office. Sorry, it doesn't seem any less insane.

No man! Not to clock hours. To chill out, after eating a super huge excellent lunch. With the kinds of lunches the Chinese eat, trying to get back into working hard right after is futile. Gotta let it sink first.

Sounds to me that you simply disagree whether having a great lunch and a relaxed working atmosphere is a valuable part of "living life". I suspect that my priorities are more like yours than the average Chinese, but I disagree that you can call them insane for a chilled out work ethic and a foodie culture. It's different, and indeed family gets almost no time and IMO that sucks balls, but it's not the nasty Nazi work regime people make it out to be.

Re: ‘A toxic culture of overwork’: The graduate student mental health crisis

#60

Post by blablabla123 » Sun, Mar 17, 2019, 9:17 AM UTC

omk wrote: post #17

After 5 years of work, I finally decided to take the jump and live the dream of earning a Masters degree from a prestitious university in The Netherlands. Being a non-EU citizen I had shell euro 15000/year but it still seemed cheaper than US counterparts. Couple months into the semester I realized the pressure kicking in my program. The planned 40 hour load required atleast 80 hours of work. I could sense stress and…

> The only preparation I was getting was the ability to absorb stress; and I was sucking at it.

That's interesting, in my second semester (Physics) a professor said to us in his introduction lecture that one of the biggest things you learn during studies is stress resilience. There's definitely a lot of truth to that. Although back at the time I didn't realize it but looking back it was the case. During studies and also 1-2 years afterwards I got incredibly resilient to stress.

No matter how much I had to do or how bad an incoming news was, I was just thinking, oh yeah now I need to do this, this and this or okay, that's just how it is, cannot do something about it. But yeah, the bill comes years after when you realize how you couldn't maintain any relationship that is not super close to you.

I wish people designing university programs but also those giving advise, would remove some of the pressure and also make the programs less intense (or at least longer with the same amount of things). As you mentioned, apart from very specific university career tracks there is little usage for many of those hard earned skills and tricks.