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Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

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Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#51

Post by benj111 »

diarmuidc wrote: post #27
0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: post #7

Can't you just stop buying airplanes from them? Edit: Do the downvoters also want to throw the executives in jail for life?

Ah yes, the magical invisible hand of the market will solve this. Now when going on holidays, I need to be factor in the safety standards of the planes that will be servicing my route. Or you know, get a government regulator to regulate airplane manufactures like normal countries.

I believe the parent is suggesting airlines buy their planes from a different manufacturer, not that consumers shop around based on manufacturer.

Ps if you're flying in a developed nation you probably can rely on regulators to regulate airlines, if you're flying in less developed nations, probably not so much.

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#52

Post by nabla9 »

usaphp wrote: post #13

> Instead, Boeing tried to claim that flight 427 crashed because a pilot had a seizure and depressed the rudder. NTSB investigators dismissed this as ridiculous. > Boeing had no choice but to carry out the changes, but the company never stopped trying to deflect blame. While the investigation was ongoing, it adopted a philosophy of trying to avoid paying out damages to families of crews because this could be legally…

Having theories and arguments that are convenient and self serving is not a crime. It's called public relations.

For crime to happen there has to be criminal activity.

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#53

Post by cat199 »

jethro_tell wrote: post #38
cryptonector wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this. Each of these scandals is a mortal danger to Boeing. One of them might someday finally put it out of business. Whereas if they reacted to each case by being committed to finding the problem whatever it is, they could greatly reduce their liability by reducing the ultimate number of fatalities due to any one problem.

People don't buy planes though, other corporations that are doing the same thing buy them. Southwest has probably pushed as much on making these things not as clear or as helpful as they could be to avoid having to retrain for a new type. And when this is said and done, they are going to buy more airplanes and people are going to continue to buy flights from them because they are cheap.

Why single out southwest specifically in this hypothetical scenario? If any airline seems 'people focused' I'd think it would be them..

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#54

Post by paganel »

nabla9 wrote: post #52
usaphp wrote: post #13

> Instead, Boeing tried to claim that flight 427 crashed because a pilot had a seizure and depressed the rudder. NTSB investigators dismissed this as ridiculous. > Boeing had no choice but to carry out the changes, but the company never stopped trying to deflect blame. While the investigation was ongoing, it adopted a philosophy of trying to avoid paying out damages to families of crews because this could be legally…

Having theories and arguments that are convenient and self serving is not a crime. It's called public relations. For crime to happen there has to be criminal activity.

> It had tampered with the PCU from the Colorado Springs crash

This looks like "activity" to me.

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#55

Post by kartan »

rkangel wrote: post #42
usaphp wrote: post #13

> Instead, Boeing tried to claim that flight 427 crashed because a pilot had a seizure and depressed the rudder. NTSB investigators dismissed this as ridiculous. > Boeing had no choice but to carry out the changes, but the company never stopped trying to deflect blame. While the investigation was ongoing, it adopted a philosophy of trying to avoid paying out damages to families of crews because this could be legally…

That would require more evidence than it sounds like there is. And that's assuming that you subscribe to the motivations put forward in this article. I generally follow Hanlon's razor - "Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence". I have a hard time believing that a cover-up in Boeing was orchestrated over several years by a group of people all who didn't care about loss of life.…

> I have a hard time believing that a cover-up in Boeing was orchestrated over several years by a group of people all who didn't care about loss of life.

No orchestration is needed. Managers only need to look with disdain to anyone that brings the issue.

If your company does not put a lot of resources to make it transparent it is going to be opaque by default. Transparency is hard to achieve when humans are so good reading a superior expression of disapproval. Most people does not need to be told to not bring that problem again, all that we need is a subtle clue.

So, to get a cover up you only need to do nothing.

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#56

Post by notaharvardmba »

amelius wrote: post #18

If the extreme deflection of the rudder causes serious control problems, then shouldn't the extremes simply be set at lower deflections (using a physical barrier/limiter)?

If that's not possible, at the very least some type of feedback control loop that can sense the actual rudder position and compare it to the desired position (based on the pedal input) that feeds into the black box should be a no-brainer.

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#57

Post by lgvln »

rkangel wrote: post #42
usaphp wrote: post #13

> Instead, Boeing tried to claim that flight 427 crashed because a pilot had a seizure and depressed the rudder. NTSB investigators dismissed this as ridiculous. > Boeing had no choice but to carry out the changes, but the company never stopped trying to deflect blame. While the investigation was ongoing, it adopted a philosophy of trying to avoid paying out damages to families of crews because this could be legally…

That would require more evidence than it sounds like there is. And that's assuming that you subscribe to the motivations put forward in this article. I generally follow Hanlon's razor - "Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence". I have a hard time believing that a cover-up in Boeing was orchestrated over several years by a group of people all who didn't care about loss of life.…

I think you might be missing the point stated in the article: the damage to the reputation of Boeing and possibly US economy is more important than the loss of a few (hundred) lives. You can say they cared about the loss of lives, just not as much as the damage to their company.

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#59

Post by matz1 »

usaphp wrote: post #13

> Instead, Boeing tried to claim that flight 427 crashed because a pilot had a seizure and depressed the rudder. NTSB investigators dismissed this as ridiculous. > Boeing had no choice but to carry out the changes, but the company never stopped trying to deflect blame. While the investigation was ongoing, it adopted a philosophy of trying to avoid paying out damages to families of crews because this could be legally…

> Should not there be some criminal charges?

That depends on whether you can convince the court.

Re: Rudder issue that plagued the Boeing 737 throughout the 1990s

#60

Post by lgvln »

gist wrote: post #34
docker_up wrote: post #26

Did Boeing executives go to jail for this disgusting cover up? I hope that the diesel cover-up of Volkswagen and the people that went to jail will motivate governments to pursue criminal charges against Boeing and/or Airbus if similar things happen. Fighting blame by lying and deflection at the risk of death should be a criminal offense. It's mass murder.

Why are you assuming what you have just seen is even true? An image, no attribution and you honestly don't even know who cooked it up or why.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues
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