Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#51

Post by manicdee » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

liability wrote: post #30

voodooranger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t seen any evidence that the two Max crashes are related. The first one was the result of Lion Air flying a plane that was not airworthy because its AOA sensor was known to be faulty. There is no information about the cause of the second crash as of yet. You’re making a claim about the purported alignment of Boeing, the FAA, and the “American media/industrial complex” (whatever that is) but I’m not aware that…

You have the wrong standard of proof. Boeing and the FAA should be erroring on the side of caution, not hiding behind innocent until proven guilty . And in case it's not totally clear, the caution should be for the passengers, not shareholders. > "its AOA sensor was known to be faulty." The plane was what, two months old? It should have been non-lethal even if a troop of rabid baboons was hired to maintain it.

If my routine maintenance breaks the steering wheel linkage in my car, does the resultant crash mean that the manufacturer did not build enough safety into the vehicle to protect it from steering errors induced by negligent mechanics?

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#52

Post by nostromo » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 3:58 AM UTC

Axsuul wrote: post #35

On people eschewing their 737 MAX flights, I would argue it's probably even safer to be on a 737 MAX these next few days since every airline and their pilots will be on edge with that particular model.

The speed at which things went wrong is what concerns me. There's a very short window of time for the pilots to diagnose the issue and correct things.

https://youtu.be/4h8GTXK3e2g?t=220

With the Lion Air flight there was only about 20 seconds from the plane nose diving to impact -- and for a significant fraction of those 20 seconds their fate was sealed.

https://geeksprinkles.com/search-for-cause-of-deadly-737-lio...

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#53

Post by netheril96 » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:00 AM UTC

anonymouslambda wrote: post #9

Singapore just grounded all their 737 Max flights. Aeromexico and GOL grounded their 737 Max planes today. Soon we’ll (U.S.) be the only country left flying these.

This should quiet anyone down who claims that China grounded 737 MAX for primarily political reasons.

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#54

Post by toufka » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:11 AM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #29

voodooranger wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven’t seen any evidence that the two Max crashes are related. The first one was the result of Lion Air flying a plane that was not airworthy because its AOA sensor was known to be faulty. There is no information about the cause of the second crash as of yet. You’re making a claim about the purported alignment of Boeing, the FAA, and the “American media/industrial complex” (whatever that is) but I’m not aware that…

I'd be curious to hear from anyone who's a pilot (I know there are a few of them here). What are the interactions between an automated system and the pilot? Specifically, can a plane quickly switch from flyable to out of control? There's a huge number of unknowns here, but I thought most pilot assistance systems were designed to be disengaged if needed.

Here's a pilot describing the new MCAS system on the 737 Max, and what a pilot would feel:

https://youtu.be/zfQW0upkVus?t=220

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#55

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:22 AM UTC

liability wrote: post #3

Boeing and the FAA no doubt believe they are protecting shareholders by not grounding the fleet, but they're risking their reputation. If it turns out that Boeing is at fault, will the American media/industrial complex be able to keep a lid on it? I doubt it.

[deleted]

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#56

Post by 7e » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:25 AM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #36

freddie_mercury wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are some other recent NY Times headlines that use the word fallout Trauma May Have Fallout Over Generations Cambridge Analytica and Facebook: The Scandal and the Fallout So Far As Trump Struggles With Helsinki’s Fallout, Congress Faces a New Charge: Complicity Inside Uber’s $100,000 Payment to a Hacker, and the Fallout Nissan and Renault Wrestle With the Fallout From Carlos Ghosn’s Arrest Fallout is widely used…

All your examples use 'fallout' about abstract occurrences – not situations where an actual plane-and-jet-fuel crashed-and-exploded from the sky, throwing some actual 'fallout' across a debris field. As far as I can tell, clean-up crews are having no notable problems with the fallout from the crash. Boeing is scrambling to contain the damage to its business.

I can't believe you stole 30 seconds of my life on this "topic."

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#57

Post by 7e » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:30 AM UTC

geofft wrote: post #46

liability wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the wrong standard of proof. Boeing and the FAA should be erroring on the side of caution, not hiding behind innocent until proven guilty . And in case it's not totally clear, the caution should be for the passengers, not shareholders. > "its AOA sensor was known to be faulty." The plane was what, two months old? It should have been non-lethal even if a troop of rabid baboons was hired to maintain it.

I don't think that's actually rational, in the sense of minimizing loss of life. If you ground all these planes worldwide, what's going to happen? Either people will take older planes, which are in worse condition, or they'll take smaller planes / alternative routes, which are more dangerous, or they'll take cars, which are much more deadly. Grounding the planes only guarantees saving lives if people stay at home ins…

That's not remotely true. The fatality rate from air travel is so low that taking alternative jets will be much safer. The new plane's selling point is efficiency so it's used on long haul routes which nobody is going to drive.

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#58

Post by speedplane » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

drunkflanker wrote: post #16

As mechanical engineering students at my college, we analyze failures of engineering ethics in the past to better inform our decisions in the future. We analyze a number of situations, always the culpability of the engineer is placed first and foremost to us. Whether legal culpability falls on the engineer, we are taught that the moral culpability falls on us as the arbiters of safety. I can already see that the 737…

> As mechanical engineering students at my college, ... always the culpability of the engineer is placed first and foremost to us

In college we learned about the engineering & product decisions that led to the challenger disaster. There's a famous line that is rumored to have been said at one of the last design meetings before the disaster: "lets take off our engineering hats and put on your management hats". Personally, I doubt this sentence was uttered, but even the rumor conveys the point.

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#59

Post by jimmy_ruska » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:43 AM UTC

Some statistically significant percentage of xbox 360s are starting to red light for customers running a certain model number. Microsoft assures customers that there's no need to panic as this particular model has been reliable for a long time, and it could just be a statistical anomaly. Microsoft is currently investigating the issue but consumers are weary about paying full price for a product that might break.

Substitute xbox 360 with PLANE, substitute microsoft with BOEING, substitute "weary about paying full price" with "dying in a horrible fiery death".

I'm not sure why this is contentious. Be on the safe side and wait for the investigation to complete in case there's some kind of unexpected single point of failure caused by mechanical defects.

Re: Boeing scrambles to contain fallout from deadly crash

#60

Post by speedplane » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 4:44 AM UTC

Axsuul wrote: post #35

On people eschewing their 737 MAX flights, I would argue it's probably even safer to be on a 737 MAX these next few days since every airline and their pilots will be on edge with that particular model.

> I would argue it's probably even safer to be on a 737 MAX these next few days since every airline and their pilots will be on edge with that particular model

You're assuming that being "on edge" is sufficient to prevent a systemic design flaw. Without a proper investigation, it's not clear that is true at all.