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Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

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Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#51

Post by gojomo »

Tichy wrote: post #49
gojomo wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google looks at the web and tries to make money. A phisher or scammer looks at the web and tries to make money. Does that make them equivalent? You can be motivated by money but still be engaged in a noble pursuit. Newspapers are published by for-profit companies in a constant and noble battle to report the truth, even though many other entities work hard to get falsehoods reported. Pharmaceuticals are developed by f…

Your examples only prove the point: newspapers in a noble battle for the truth? Pharmaceutical companies in a noble battle against disease? No offence, but I think you need some reality checks. Not saying that newspapers don't hit upon the truth occasionally, or that pharmaceuticals don't cure the odd disease. But to quote a physician I once talked to: "I wouldn't be surprised if the cure against HIV is already lying…

I thought it might be a word-choice and cultural issue; I suspect in Europe 'noble' has different connotations because there are actual aristocracy doing things, occasionally altruistically. (Americans mainly think of aristocracy as a source of camp entertainment.) I meant 'noble' as 'deservedly outstanding; moral; admirable; honorable; generous'.

The journalists working for profit-making papers I have met do believe their work a noble calling, even when they feel cynical or compromised by the economic realities of their market. Though each has internalized biases one should be aware of, the NYTimes and WSJ are both great papers whose staff is usually fighting hard to arrive at the truth.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#52

Post by LPTS »

gojomo wrote: post #21
mrtron wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that we will see excessive commercialization as something evil in 50+ years, along with the whole institution of corporations. So, going on this train of thought, how can you be a slave to any corporation where the huge number of employees are making very few very rich and die happy? On my death bed I will not look back and say 'I am really glad I worked for X and sacrificed time from my friends and family to…

If you live in a highly-developed country, 'the whole institution of corporations', legal fiction/invention that it is, is probably responsible for most of your modern comforts. The institution of corporations is certainly responsible for the startup opportunities cherished by this community. On your death bed, you might wish somebody had worked harder at their company to cure whatever's killing you.

I really think you are wrong about google being a great job where people can easily be fulfilled.

But, I sure agree with you about corporations doing a lot of good for the world. Corporations are great.

The problem with corporations is in a combination of the shitty supreme court ruling that gives them all the rights of people, and the laws that say (unlike people) there only obligation is to maximize shareholder value. A lot of corporate abuse comes from them having all the legal rights of personhood but none of the moral responsibilities or ethics that come with personhood. We need corporations, but they should only get the rights of personhood if they agree to the ethical and moral responsibilities of personhood too. The problem isn't with corporations in and of themselves, it's this shitty legal context they exist in.

The other problem with corporations is that they can pass off costs to the public. For example, the true cost of oil includes the environmental damage from burning hydrocarbons, but this doesn't show up on the balance sheet. Or, if you prefer, the costs of bottling pepsi include water rights issues, yet bottlers often don't have to pay market price for this access, and may continue to get heavily subsidized water during a drought.

If these two problems were solved, corporations would be a lot better. I think people who attribute the problems corporations are confused and the problem is really a subtler issue around the particular way we allow corporations to selectively get the benefits of citizenship without the responsibilities, and to pass off costs like environmental, opportunity, and subsidies.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#53

Post by Tichy »

gojomo wrote: post #51
Tichy wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your examples only prove the point: newspapers in a noble battle for the truth? Pharmaceutical companies in a noble battle against disease? No offence, but I think you need some reality checks. Not saying that newspapers don't hit upon the truth occasionally, or that pharmaceuticals don't cure the odd disease. But to quote a physician I once talked to: "I wouldn't be surprised if the cure against HIV is already lying…

I thought it might be a word-choice and cultural issue; I suspect in Europe 'noble' has different connotations because there are actual aristocracy doing things, occasionally altruistically. (Americans mainly think of aristocracy as a source of camp entertainment.) I meant 'noble' as 'deservedly outstanding; moral; admirable; honorable; generous'. The journalists working for profit-making papers I have met do believe…

I think individual journalists are doing a good job and might have the right motivation, I just have never seen the actual newspapers to operate on that basis.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#54

Post by LPTS »

gojomo wrote: post #19
LPTS wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it's a bit of a cheap shot. I don't think it's inaccurate. There is no doubt the ad system is valuable. There is no doubt that creating the advertising systems google uses would be an intellectual challenge. But people don't want to see ads. This work is mostly the work of deciding how to best trick people into being distracted by text they don't want to see in the first place. The better the ad people do the…

Well-matched non-obnoxious ads don't make people worse off and aren't a 'trick'. For example, for many Google queries, the paid results are more interesting to me than the natural results. Since ad revenue makes other content possible, the better ad people do their jobs, the better off audiences are. If only dumb and ineffective people worked on ad systems, we'd lose a lot of quality web content. Not all work has to…

So basically google is an extortion racket where people can't find you on the internet unless you either pay outlandish SEO fees to people to battle against google for tricking it into displaying your results high, or pay google for ads?

And maintaining this system (to googles benefit, not the consumers) is mostly a battle of fighting off the SEO guys so that your advertising money goes to google, or you don't get seen. There is honor and dignity in this endless, pointless fight? That doesn't sound like meaningful work that will satisfy people with a burning desire to change the world. That sounds like extortion. (Pay us ads, pay your nerds to fight with our nerds about SEO, or get kicked off the block).

Obviously, there are tons of people for whatever reason just want a job they can live with. That's fine. I'm not saying everyone should quit google or anyone who works at google is a soulless spineless fuck or anything like that.

But these google guys are at the edge of what's possible, and some of the brightest folks around. I'm not talking about finding a great job you can live with. I'm talking about the people who have both the desire and ability to set the world on fire. Those are the people google wants and can't hold.

I completely agree not all work has to be soul affirming to be worth doing. But there are some people who won't settle for less than truly meaningful work. These are the people google both needs, and can't hang onto.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#55

Post by LPTS »

gojomo wrote: post #47
Tichy wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"constant and noble battle" Oh come on, give me a break. Google is a commercial company. They are in it for the money, like everybody else.

Google looks at the web and tries to make money. A phisher or scammer looks at the web and tries to make money. Does that make them equivalent? You can be motivated by money but still be engaged in a noble pursuit. Newspapers are published by for-profit companies in a constant and noble battle to report the truth, even though many other entities work hard to get falsehoods reported. Pharmaceuticals are developed by f…

Um...you're going with...um...newspapers and pharmaceuticals as examples of noble corporations?

Um...

OK. I hate to break this too you, but newspapers haven't had shit to do with the truth since ownership rules relaxed enough to turn them into propaganda tools for whatever rich asshole with old money buys. Newspapers are mostly against the truth. When they do report whats true (about things the old money rulers don't care about), it's only so they can lie later, when the money does care.

And there is a special place in hell for the scum fucks who set up pharmaceutical pricing and patenting schemes where AIDS patients all over the world are dying because they can't get access to medications factories in their own countries could make.

And most work in pharmaceuticals is in reformulating drugs where the patent is about to expire and manipulating studies to claim a slight benefit over the previous generation, and then aggressively advertising it to consumers who are completely uneducated about medications while unethically pushing doctors to use it.

Those are really really bad examples of corporations that do noble work.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#56

Post by bluelu »

menloparkbum wrote: post #18
tdavis wrote: post #12

It must just be me, but if I had a job at Google I wouldn't leave it to go work at a place like Facebook. All they have going for them is mass adoption which doesn't mean much without a worthwhile monetization strategy which they've yet to find. Work for a high-flying tech company with more perks than anybody, 20% of my time to work on whatever I want and a proven method for generating massive income or jump ship to…

Hardly anyone gets to do the 20% time. Google has done a good job keeping its engineering hiring relatively top notch, but it has not done the same with its management hiring process. Thus there is a good chance your manager will be a complete psycho.

A friend also told me taht he had no time working on his 20% project, because he was so busy doing the other stuff. And I suspect the bonus depends on the regular work, and not on your pet project ;-).

Hell, not even the inventor of python can work on python full time. (only 50%). I expected at least him to work 50% on it, as it's so widely used inside google. The same for people working on php.

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#57

Post by mattmaroon »

enonko wrote: post #37
mattmaroon wrote: post #4

Everyone keeps referring to their lunches as "haute cuisine". Maybe I missed something the couple times I ate there, but I don't think it's fair to refer to a buffet as that. I guess relative to the normal corporate vending machines it's pretty awesome, but it's far from a Michelin 3 Star joint.

There's only one three star joint on the west coast and while it's not far from Mountain View, it's definitely not Google's cafeteria. :)

French Laundry?

Re: Google Finds That Perks Can't Keep Some Employees From Leaving

#58

Post by enonko »

mattmaroon wrote: post #57
enonko wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's only one three star joint on the west coast and while it's not far from Mountain View, it's definitely not Google's cafeteria. :)

French Laundry?

Yes. I've been to 6 three-star places over the last few years, but FL takes the cake.
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