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The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

theatlantic.com

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Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#51
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I tend to agree with the commentators on your post. I went the college route, but technically had a "trade school" experience first via the military - it gave me the befit of trying out a career field before I committed to a degree. I have family members who just went to trade school and comfortably clear 6 figures a year - they never even had a desire for college.

We need to stop stigmatizing trade schools and start realizing that college IS NOT a necessity for everyone, especially with recent debt loads people are taking on for worthless degrees (e.g. a top university near me recently removed all the math courses from an IT/cyber degree because students "were not enrolling in high enough numbers" - that would NEVER happen 20 or so years ago). "An expansive view of human knowledge" is not needed for someone who just wants to work as an electrician - which many people are perfectly happy doing. If they are happy with a trade, why force them into something they will be miserable in?

Even now, as an employer in a technical field, college degrees are virtually meaningless because most institutions utterly fail to equip their students for the workforce. We hire based on a combination of experience, personality, and certifications. Only if your degree is in a designated engineering field do we give it any weight at all but, even then, experience is still paramount.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#52
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

What if there were humanities bootcamps?

That probably sounds like a joke...but why should a traditional expensive university be the only structured way to get exposure to broader human knowledge?

An intensive bootcamp model doesn’t actually make sense for breadth (they are designed for the opposite)...but if you told me I could be part of a structured organization in my city where I’d be introduced to interesting broad humanities topics through lectures from experts and assignments over several months then I’d be interested.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#53

If students are coming out of 12 years of general education needing more general education, that is a failure of the public school system. We should fix that instead of pushing people into more school. After 12 years of general education, how do you justify more? In my opinion, we should be pushing specialized education at a younger age. When students exit high school, they should have skills that they can expand or…

You could devote your whole life to the pursuit of knowledge and still not have a good understanding of the world.

That is how I'd justify the fact that 12 years of access to education is not enough.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#54

I'm a regular college grad, but always liked working on my own car (and didn't always trust professional mechanics.) That lead me to consider becoming an auto mechanic at one time but after hearing some stories - and looking at the pay scales - I jumped back on my desk and rode off into the sunset. The stories - 1) Constant complaints by mgmt about productivity. 2) Grueling work schedules 3) Pressure to upsell additi…

That depends. I've known a couple of guys that own their own shops, and specialize how they want to. Those guys did really well, made good money, and enjoyed their work. Being an employee at a randomly selected repair shop would likely suck hard.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#55
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

I think this is a valid point, but...

The way the tertiary education "system" works is built on a premise that is contradictory to that.

Within a generation or two we went from a university system that was intended to educate and socialize (for lack of a better term) wealthy people to a university system that educates regular people.

The premise for this was/is "human capital." That is the idea that wealth isn't just wealth. Your ability to do earn income with your skills is wealth too. In that framework, education is a capital investment.. something that pays for itself.

A lot of efforts went into making these capital investments. Students spend years. Parents save for decades. Charities contribute scholarships. Governments fund universities. ..and of course, (moreso in the US) debt pays for a lot of it.

The human capital theories suggested that education is such a great investment though, that it's worth it.

It turned out though, that colleges aren't really creating the income differences observed between graduates an non graduates. A lot of what they do is just admit people who will be high income earners. The ambitious, talented, studious, academically inclined... and the wealthy.

Anyway.. The problem is that the investment is big. We (society, students, parents) can't afford for it to have a poor return, and retroactivley rebrand it as something else..

Intellectual enrichment is a very worthy pursuit, if you can afford it. That's what universities were originally for. Most people just can't afford it, on balance.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#56
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

Except that's what high school should be. And let's face it, general studies courses that make up that "expansive view" of college really are repeats of high school with slightly more work, at least if you take honors classes in high school. And if that expansive knowledge is being surrounded by peers who are in pursuit of higher learning...that's not the typical college experience these days.

High school is becoming more dumbed down so that people can pass state exams and graduate rather than teaching the knowledge that we used to consider foundational. We've lowered expectations and extended adolescence so much that we no longer expect 18 year olds to be mature and capable adults, which shouldn't be the case.

Your view of trade schools is severely skewed though, and is really indicative of the problem discussed in the article. Most trade schools do not turn you into a worker on a production line, they teach you to be a skilled worker or artisan in a trade. You don't go to a trade school to be an assembly line worker, those are jobs that are taught on the job and are typically low paying. You go to a trade school to be an electrician, mechanic, carpenter, welder, etc. These are skilled jobs that are difficult and challenging. They are also jobs that have a greatly accelerated pay scale, and often lead to jobs that pay as high or higher than the large majority of college degrees (maybe STEM excluded), particularly if you are able to start your own business in the trade.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#57
post #7

The crazy thing is that most colleges have evolved non-academic party tracks, or simple tuition-extraction tracks: https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... . Talking about "college," as if it's just one big unified thing, doesn't make sense today (if it ever did). I spent ten years teaching college, and I wish this point were better emphasized in the media narratives.

> The crazy thing is that most colleges have evolved non-academic party tracks, or simple tuition-extraction tracks:

I suffered through a computer science degree. I didn't make much progress figuring things out after the first year (on account of my head injury [0]). My father values my degree more than I do.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17734058

When I was finishing up my first year at teh university, I thought I was wasting my time. Pops said, "just get your degree, then you can do what you want." That piece of paper was rather expensive. Later I came to appreciate that college is mostly about signaling.

Quotes from your link:

> Men by and large compete to be selected by women, but my anecdotal observation is that relatively few women perceive this because they’re in turn focused on a relatively small number of high-status men, with status defined differently in different context.

I had to explain this to a passenger one night [1]. She'd remembered me from the time I'd almost taken her somewhere, maybe two months before...

[1] https://www.taxiwars.org/2016/02/the-difference-between-boys...

> Why would a high-status, high-skill man want to marry a random woman with limited skills or prospects?

I have notes for a followup to my blog post, tentatively titled "the predicaments of girls and boys". One of my passengers told of a woman who'd snagged herself a "high-status man". After four years she got kicked to the curb. I suspect she was attempting to upgrade herself from 'trophy girlfriend' to 'trophy wife', but her high-status boyfriend probably thought that was beyond the scope of their arrangement.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor return on investment given risks involved, you're better off offloading that cost of education/training to the individual and then just hiring them when they signal they are worthy of employment.

I have hired high school drop-outs and academics, both the best and the worst performers came in roughly equal proportions from both groups.

That's because your interview process is already biasing the result. To get a fairer comparison you should take a random sample from both groups (out of all the applicants) and see (although self selection bias is still in play here).

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#59
post #18

One thing that is always missing from these articles is the idea that it’s actually good for individuals (and for our society) to get an expansive view of human knowledge rather than a narrow training to turn you into a worker on a production line (or at a computer). Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people, and people may have other financial reasons for going to trade schools, but I th…

> Of course right now that’s a path that’s not accessible to many people... Not trying to be too argumentative here, but if the implication you're making is that university is the best way "to get an expansive view of human knowledge", I disagree. You are correct that it is not "accessible" to many people, but an expansive view of human knowledge is, IMO, more accessible than ever in history. An internet connection c…

You make an excellent point. The best part of University that I felt during my undergraduate years was curation of content. The university library is an excellent source of good books in your target domain. The university courses and faculty also help you keep focus. Another main advantage of University is access to a diverse group of peers with somewhat similar knowledge levels.

Re: The Stigma of Choosing Trade School over College

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best guess is that is due to HR and mangement wanting to cover their ass when making hiring decisions. If a candidate is hired and they don't do well they can appeal to the authority of the degree the candidate had to make their decision seem rational. I went straight from high school to a very entry level web development job. I didn't have any chance at getting a job at a larger company but small web shops provid…

HRs graduated from social and humanity sciences don't want to devalue their degree by hiring a non degree person.

For as long as I've been on tech interview loops, it's not HR but the manager who makes the call with (sometimes strong) advice from the interviewers. Maybe the recruiters don't take the self-taught as seriously as they should …
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