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How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

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Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#51

Post by nonbirithm »

estsauver wrote: post #12

I always find the benefits of portability to be a rather funny one: It's always immediately followed by 800 lines of dotfiles that do an incredible amount of customization. The IDE vs. vim/emacs purist debate is always crazy to me. There are some places where IDE's are almost certainly better: Java in a large project in IntelliJ has to be 100x better than in Vim. For new languages or languages where there isn't subst…

Or you could connect to IntelliJ from emacs.

https://github.com/Ruin0x11/intellij-lsp-server

(Though unfinished, it's at least proof the concept could work.)

Personally I use omnisharp at work for C# projects, on Windows, and am able to accomplish all the tasks I need to do except debugging entirely in emacs, and get refactoring, diagnostics and completion.

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#52

Post by zelos »

vvanders wrote: post #33
estsauver wrote: post #12

I always find the benefits of portability to be a rather funny one: It's always immediately followed by 800 lines of dotfiles that do an incredible amount of customization. The IDE vs. vim/emacs purist debate is always crazy to me. There are some places where IDE's are almost certainly better: Java in a large project in IntelliJ has to be 100x better than in Vim. For new languages or languages where there isn't subst…

Or take the best of both worlds with VIM IntelliJ plugin :D.

I normally find that IDE Vim plugins are almost good enough, but not quite. They fall into a kind of uncanny valley where they'll support most of what you need, but that makes the bits that are missing more jarring.

That, plus they often break other functionality. Using a Vim plugin with Eclipse made using the refactoring functionality a lot more fiddly, IIRC.

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#53

Post by Scarbutt »

estsauver wrote: post #12

I always find the benefits of portability to be a rather funny one: It's always immediately followed by 800 lines of dotfiles that do an incredible amount of customization. The IDE vs. vim/emacs purist debate is always crazy to me. There are some places where IDE's are almost certainly better: Java in a large project in IntelliJ has to be 100x better than in Vim. For new languages or languages where there isn't subst…

I launch emacs from intelli for text editing.

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#54

Post by cphoover »

noxToken wrote: post #42
cphoover wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are using Java as a convincing argument for using an IDE... Java... ugh.. If you use mainly statically typed languages where IDE static analysis, refactor tools proves super useful to you... keep using that set up. I don't really see the appeal personally.

I don't think the argument itself is Java. I think the argument is that heavy, corporate projects (typically written in Java or C#) can have lots of benefit from IDEs. This isn't to say that there aren't terminal utils that aren't powerful enough to handle such a project. But being able to Ctrl + Alt + LMB an interface and being taken to the implementation (or shown a list of all implementing classes) or pulling a gr…

> "I don't think the argument itself is Java. I think the argument is that heavy, corporate projects (typically written in Java or C#) can have lots of benefit from IDEs."

I think this for me is the gist of the problem... A lot of corporations prefer these large monolithic codebases, with a thousand different interfaces and abstract classes.

I think this is a mistake in design, and prefer simple applications with simple interfaces. They are easy to maintain, and are more reliable as their are less moving pieces.

I'd rather write a small app/service in python, c, JavaScript than work in some horrifically gargantuan and abstract Java code base.

This is a problem with enterprise in general, they'd rather incur technical debt to stuff in new features into legacy monoliths, instead of designing small applications and services with simple interfaces.

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#55

Post by lghh »

fiddlerwoaroof wrote: post #38
cphoover wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been using Vim for about the same length of time... And the times I have used those emulators they just haven't been the same. Does the emulator support VimScript? Macros? Plugins? async jobs like vim8? The terminal is my IDE I can open a file with a couple of keystrokes, run bash scripts from inside of my editor and just as easily be back navigating the terminal. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how inte…

What IntelliJ gives you is code generation and automatic refactoring to make writing Java less tedious. That being said, the tradeoff is increased resource usage.

> That being said, the tradeoff is increased resource usage.

Which for most developers in a corporate or small business environment is 100% worth it. Not ever corporate developer has a nice enough computer to run an IDE, but I bet that at least 95% do.

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#56

Post by fxfan »

xemdetia wrote: post #37
olig15 wrote: post #18

I'm a game developer mainly writing/reading/debugging C++ on a codebase that's well over a million lines of code. As with most game-dev I'm developing almost entirely using Visual Studio, and I can't imagine trying to navigate code using a terminal based editor. Maybe it's just because this is what I'm used to, however I just don't see how some of the tools would even be displayed in a terminal (parallel stacks windo…

I feel most people that have used a command line workflow that need a GUI for debugging GDB's TUI is generally adequate even with large debugging projects. It's not a perfect 1:1 to the magic that Visual Studio gives you, but it is useful even with very large projects. Then again people who are terminal oriented usually use/look for other styles of debugging compared to people who have a solid IDE where the debugger…

The goal is not to stick to a particular style- it's to use the best tools for the job. why settle for gdb when there is VS Which is light years ahead. just like why use vscode when there is vim which is light speed faster?

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#57

Post by Scarbutt »

nonbirithm wrote: post #51
estsauver wrote: post #12

I always find the benefits of portability to be a rather funny one: It's always immediately followed by 800 lines of dotfiles that do an incredible amount of customization. The IDE vs. vim/emacs purist debate is always crazy to me. There are some places where IDE's are almost certainly better: Java in a large project in IntelliJ has to be 100x better than in Vim. For new languages or languages where there isn't subst…

Or you could connect to IntelliJ from emacs. https://github.com/Ruin0x11/intellij-lsp-server (Though unfinished, it's at least proof the concept could work.) Personally I use omnisharp at work for C# projects, on Windows, and am able to accomplish all the tasks I need to do except debugging entirely in emacs, and get refactoring, diagnostics and completion.

Also https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-java

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#59

Post by transpostmeta »

cphoover wrote: post #54
noxToken wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the argument itself is Java. I think the argument is that heavy, corporate projects (typically written in Java or C#) can have lots of benefit from IDEs. This isn't to say that there aren't terminal utils that aren't powerful enough to handle such a project. But being able to Ctrl + Alt + LMB an interface and being taken to the implementation (or shown a list of all implementing classes) or pulling a gr…

> "I don't think the argument itself is Java. I think the argument is that heavy, corporate projects (typically written in Java or C#) can have lots of benefit from IDEs." I think this for me is the gist of the problem... A lot of corporations prefer these large monolithic codebases, with a thousand different interfaces and abstract classes. I think this is a mistake in design, and prefer simple applications with sim…

Managing large businesses is complex, and requires complex software. Spreading the complexity between various codebases does not make the software less complex. Large codebases in COBOL, Java and C# are what make the world go round.

Re: How I'm still not using GUIs in 2019: A guide to the terminal

#60

Post by [deleted] »

xemdetia wrote: post #37
olig15 wrote: post #18

I'm a game developer mainly writing/reading/debugging C++ on a codebase that's well over a million lines of code. As with most game-dev I'm developing almost entirely using Visual Studio, and I can't imagine trying to navigate code using a terminal based editor. Maybe it's just because this is what I'm used to, however I just don't see how some of the tools would even be displayed in a terminal (parallel stacks windo…

I feel most people that have used a command line workflow that need a GUI for debugging GDB's TUI is generally adequate even with large debugging projects. It's not a perfect 1:1 to the magic that Visual Studio gives you, but it is useful even with very large projects. Then again people who are terminal oriented usually use/look for other styles of debugging compared to people who have a solid IDE where the debugger…

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