Pufferfish in China bred poison-free • Hacker News Board

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#51

Post by Pharmakon » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 11:07 PM UTC

moosey wrote: post #45

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could learn from China on this one. Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one. If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but beca…

> many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but because of the harm the user causes to others, and it's not feasible to make a "safer" dose because the nature of these drugs encourages addicts to use larger or stronger doses over time. I'm interested in how making them illegal abates this? It seems like a non-sequitur to me. Further, even after making many natural drugs in categories that…

I will suggest instead that drugs are illegal for two reasons: Moralization, which is basically randomness applied to ethics; and because it allows our justice system to pick and choose who to imprison.

A third reason is that generally speaking, they cause a lot of pain and suffering. I’m against prohibition, but dismissing it entirely as moralizing and social control misses the very real dangers of drug abuse, and their attendant social costs. It’s just that the only thing worse than the harm caused by drugs, is the harm caused by drugs and their prohibition. Legalizing drugs is just step 1 though. Step 2 has to be a massive overhaul of treatment for addicts and the mentally ill.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#52

Post by gamblor956 » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 11:33 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #17

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could learn from China on this one. Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one. If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but beca…

Let's not forget that while you added marijuana as an example of this, it's both not currently entirely allowed, and for a very long time was classified as highly dangerous. It's a good example of not only how the government can get this wrong, but how it is also is susceptible to being swayed by politics (both as a constituency wants something whether justified or not, and as a scapegoat for political ends). In that…

In that respect, alcohol is actually a counter-example to some degree as well, since it arguably causes quite a large harm to others every year through drunk driving, yet it's politically untenable to ban it (again).

The difference between alcohol and the other drugs is that alcohol makes other activities dangerous, but the onus is ultimately on the individual. The other drugs simply make the person dangerous, due to hallucinations, violent/uncontrollable urges, etc. They also have permanent physiological effects on the brain even at low doses and only a few uses, whereas alcohol would require substantial amounts of consumption to have significant or permanent effects. Not even remotely the same thing.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#53

Post by gamblor956 » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 11:37 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #46

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could learn from China on this one. Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one. If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but beca…

The biggest harm those drugs cause is to the wallet of the user, to the point that a lot decide to become dealers (or sex workers) themselves so that they can cut the drug with brick dust and USE the clean share for themselves, which causes major health issues (e.g. abscesses at the injection point) downstream that are then attributed to the drug rather than the additives. If those "drug addicts" have access to cheap…

If those "drug addicts" have access to cheap, uncontaminated drugs and the dosage is controlled by their doctors then all of the problems that are commonly associated with "hard" drug use disappear.

No, these drugs literally destroy the brain at a physiological level. Meth, Ecstasy, cocaine, etc. have permanent effects on the user. One use doesn't usually cause noticeable damage, but regular use does.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#54

Post by gamblor956 » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 11:39 PM UTC

threwawasy1228 wrote: post #49

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could learn from China on this one. Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one. If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but beca…

I would think that making them illegal probably increases the harm these users cause other people. Say a drug addict is using something very potent and illegal, a large aspect of their life revolves around a criminal act, using, purchasing, and carrying the drug they crave. Wouldn't their logic then be, "I'm already committing potentially felony level crimes each day, so what difference does robbing someone make? Jus…

Wouldn't their logic then be, "I'm already committing potentially felony level crimes each day, so what difference does robbing someone make? Just another crime to my list of crimes."

No, you assume they are acting logically. Someone high on meth is not acting logically. They're hallucinating, acting impulsively, etc. Logic has nothing to do with it.

By othering them through making their daily routines a crime, I would argue that it encourages them to branch out into other crimes.

That's simply not true. They branch out into other crimes not because they're already committing one crime but to support their growing drug habit. (And speaking of the "original" crime, the penalty for drug use crimes is usually just mandatory rehab for the first or second offense, as states no longer have the money to pay to incarcerate drug users.)

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#55

Post by gamblor956 » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 11:43 PM UTC

emsy wrote: post #22

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could learn from China on this one. Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one. If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but beca…

You reply on a post arguing that control can increase safety by saying illegal drugs are unsafe because they are uncontrolled. Putting your circular reasoning aside, there are so many illegal drugs that are safer for the user and the population than alcohol. It shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

My reasoning is not circular, I'm simply not explaining everything in that post.

Those other drugs aren't unsafe because they're uncontrolled. They're unsafe because they're unsafe: they cause permanent physiological changes to the body even at small doses and even after only a few uses. (Contra alcohol and marijuana which requires truly staggering use before causing permanent physiological harm.)

It shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

My degree is in cognitive science and I've probably represented more drug users than you have. I'm well versed in the science and policy of controlled substances, and it's pretty clear that if you think that their are "so many illegal drugs that are safer for the user and the population than alcohol" than you have no idea what you're talking about. Marijuana aside, the drugs on the controlled substances list earned their spots on that list.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#56

Post by m3kw9 » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 11:44 PM UTC

Recipe for cases where one poisoned one slips thru and you get recalls.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#57

Post by comicjk » Thu, Feb 07, 2019, 11:57 PM UTC

moosey wrote: post #45

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could learn from China on this one. Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one. If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but beca…

> many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but because of the harm the user causes to others, and it's not feasible to make a "safer" dose because the nature of these drugs encourages addicts to use larger or stronger doses over time. I'm interested in how making them illegal abates this? It seems like a non-sequitur to me. Further, even after making many natural drugs in categories that…

I agree with most of what you say, but it's not true that "we legalized tons of opioids made by US manufacturers" - being a prescription drug is far from being legal. Recall that fentanyl, morphine, amphetamines, and even meth are available from doctors, while being quite distinctly illegal in any other context.

If anything, this reinforces your point about moralization and selective criminalization. The same chemical can be a medicine or a crime, and most of the difference comes down to money and class.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#58

Post by myrandomcomment » Fri, Feb 08, 2019, 12:07 AM UTC

I have had Fugu in Japan a number of times. The interesting thing is that they never are able to get all the bad stuff out. Your lips will tingle and get numb at some point.

It is damn good.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#59

Post by myrandomcomment » Fri, Feb 08, 2019, 12:09 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #15

throwaway2016a wrote: post #4

I find this part interesting: > Wang says: “Chinese [people] have risked death to eat pufferfish for a long time. The government couldn’t inspect every household to implement the pufferfish ban. So it opened up the industry by legalising it.” > Duan says that, thanks to the legalisation, and to the number of fisheries experts graduating from the Ocean University of China and Dalian Ocean University, “pufferfish dinin…

So something is dangerous and people are going to do it anyway so they legalize it and try to make it safer instead of criminalizing it. The US could learn from China on this one. Pufferfish has been legal in the US for decades at least, there is a classic Simpons episode in which Homer consumes one. If you meant to comment on drug policy: many drugs are illegal not because of the harm they cause to the user but beca…

I would argue that Marijuana has become why more potent over the years. My 70 year old Aunt was visiting CA from TX last year and she and my mother used to smoke a small bit of pot in the 80s. We visited a friend that has some (not my cup of tea) and she wanted to try it. She said it kicked her ass. That is antidotal, but it has been repeated over and over by various people over the years.

Re: Pufferfish in China bred poison-free

#60

Post by darkpuma » Fri, Feb 08, 2019, 1:32 AM UTC

moate wrote: post #32

darkpuma wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harsher regulation of alcohol advertising would address this problem as well. Alcohol advertisements normalize the over-consumption of alcohol and the habitual consumption of alcohol, both of which are hazardous. The reason I mentioned alcohol poisoning and not long term organ damage is because I consider that to be a less severe issue even if the bodycount is higher. Elderly people living to be slightly less elderly…

Counterpoint: the long term effects of alcohol lead to a decreased quality of life. Sad teen DUI is absolutely sad, but 15 years of bleeding ulcers and the pain caused by liver/kidney problems due to alcoholism isn't exactly sunshine and smiles. That's not even getting into the links between dementia and alcohol abuse, because I personally find nothing more terrifying than being a shell of my former self as my mind f…

As far as I'm concerned, a young person dying peacefully in their sleep is more tragic than an elderly person dying slowly and painfully. The math on this one seems pretty straight forward to me, but I appreciate that some people may find attitude cold or cynical. Most people probably wouldn't be willing to throw that proverbial trolley switch, but I would without hesitation.