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Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

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Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#51

Post by yesenadam »

fsloth wrote: post #29

Anyone interested in the psychology of survivors will likely find "Man's search for meaning" by Viktor Frankl - a psychiatrist and survivor himself an enlihgtening read. What makes man go on, and when will he/she just give up?

Naturally I also thought of this powerful book, that I read almost 30 years ago.

He found that the people that survived the camps were those that had something to live for, whose lives retained some meaning, some value, and that that was more significant than any other factor.

...And I just read his (pretty disturbing) wikipedia page. I hadn't heard any of the 'Controversy' stuff before, of which there is a lot, too much to summarize here. No wonder he's not better-known these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#52

Post by thatoneuser »

fsloth wrote: post #29

Anyone interested in the psychology of survivors will likely find "Man's search for meaning" by Viktor Frankl - a psychiatrist and survivor himself an enlihgtening read. What makes man go on, and when will he/she just give up?

That's exactly what my mind turned to when thinking about this paradox. Perhaps a determined will can lead to longer life?

Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#53

Post by dogma1138 »

Pharmakon wrote: post #48
dogma1138 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s possible that a long starvation period has induced lower life time caloric intake just not on the same levels, it could be that the period alone was enough to induce some epigenetic changes I don’t know why it’s being downvoted it could potentially be a cause behind this discrepancy.

Because other historical famines and atrocities don’t seem to yield the same outcome, and because it’s really just tacking a current fad onto the story without anything like evidence. After all, “it’s possible” covers such a huge variety of possibilities that it’s meaningless without statements of likelihood. It is after all possible that I’m an advanced AI, or that your mouse will tunnel a meter to the left. It’s mo…

I’m not sure there is sufficient data to support your hypothesis.

Famines in the modern world are rare, they still exists in some places but those places aren’t exactly stable and have high life expectancy to begin with.

Famines in historic times were both not rare, periodic, and there isn’t nearly enough data to show if there was any benefit to the survivors other than less competition for resources after the famine has subsided.

I’m not sure there has been an event like the holocaust where so many people went on to live what essentially became modern western life with all the advantages it provides as far as life expectancy goes.

Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#54

Post by Pharmakon »

dogma1138 wrote: post #53
Pharmakon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because other historical famines and atrocities don’t seem to yield the same outcome, and because it’s really just tacking a current fad onto the story without anything like evidence. After all, “it’s possible” covers such a huge variety of possibilities that it’s meaningless without statements of likelihood. It is after all possible that I’m an advanced AI, or that your mouse will tunnel a meter to the left. It’s mo…

I’m not sure there is sufficient data to support your hypothesis. Famines in the modern world are rare, they still exists in some places but those places aren’t exactly stable and have high life expectancy to begin with. Famines in historic times were both not rare, periodic, and there isn’t nearly enough data to show if there was any benefit to the survivors other than less competition for resources after the famine…

I’m not sure there is sufficient data to support your hypothesis. Famines in the modern world are rare, they still exists in some places but those places aren’t exactly stable and have high life expectancy to begin with.

To be clear, mine is the null hypothesis. I suggest that no extraordinary or new information can be gleaned from the life expectancy of Holocaust survivors at present. This constrasts with any claim that this information provides a possible bit of support for the notion that starvation can lead to extended life expectancy.

Famines in historic times were both not rare, periodic, and there isn’t nearly enough data to show if there was any benefit to the survivors other than less competition for resources after the famine has subsided.

Lenin’s USSR between ‘21-‘22 (9 million dead), China in ‘27 (About 3 million dead), Stalin’s Holodomor of Ukraine ‘32-‘34 (8 million dead), Henan, China in ‘43 (5 million dead), Bengal ‘43 (2-3 million dead), Mao’s China ‘58-‘62 (10-30 million dead), The DPRK ‘95-‘99 (about 3 million dead and the lasting negative impact is well studied), and many more from Biafra to Dust Bowl era Oklahoma.

I’m not sure there has been an event like the holocaust where so many people went on to live what essentially became modern western life with all the advantages it provides as far as life expectancy goes.

I agree that it’s hard to find a comparison of people leading a “modern Western life,” but plenty of Holocaust survivors didn’t either. Moreover the negative impacts of starvation are well documented, and “longer life expectancy” isn’t in it. Arrayed against that we have a handful of mouse studies, those very creatures we can cure of cancer... for all that doesn’t apply to us.

Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#55

Post by mc32 »

cm2187 wrote: post #4

Kind of obvious but can it be simply a selection bias? The weakest died in the camps, the survivors would be the healthier, stronger, and therefore have a longer life expectancy than average.

Could it not also have a psychological component. To survive these things, I think in addition to physical robustness, you also need mental toughness to persevere in the face of daily uncertainty. This component may also aid once back in regular society.

Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#56

Post by unmole »

fsloth wrote: post #29

Anyone interested in the psychology of survivors will likely find "Man's search for meaning" by Viktor Frankl - a psychiatrist and survivor himself an enlihgtening read. What makes man go on, and when will he/she just give up?

Man's Search for Meaning is survivorship bias taken to the absolute extreme. It's meant to serve as advertising for Frankl's Logotherapy ideas which I believe are actively harmful. Do take a look at the links posted in other comments.

Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#57

Post by fsloth »

yesenadam wrote: post #51
fsloth wrote: post #29

Anyone interested in the psychology of survivors will likely find "Man's search for meaning" by Viktor Frankl - a psychiatrist and survivor himself an enlihgtening read. What makes man go on, and when will he/she just give up?

Naturally I also thought of this powerful book, that I read almost 30 years ago. He found that the people that survived the camps were those that had something to live for, whose lives retained some meaning, some value, and that that was more significant than any other factor. ...And I just read his (pretty disturbing) wikipedia page. I hadn't heard any of the 'Controversy' stuff before, of which there is a lot , too…

Thanks. It seems part of that critique rose out of infighting in the jewish community - Frankl did not want to seek persecution and hence was labeled a traitor to the cause? It sounds like he was treated like a willfull collaborator.

Without more information I can actually relate to both sides of the argument. A person has a only one life. I can totally understand if one wants to just forget and move on.

Regarding logotherapy - lots of people have survived great loss by chasing a higher goal. For example Enrico Fermi dove into physics at a young age after he had lost his beloved brother.

Logotherapy is not philosophy, it's a treatment. It's intellectually dishonest to compare it to a political ideology.

As diagnozed with severe depression recently I can't really fault the idea of trying to find meaning in those pieces of your life that you have left.

The medical experimentation part sound nasty, though. I have no idea what to make of that.

I suppose none of the above changes my view on the subject. The book is a self help book and like all in it's genre should be read with a pinch of salt and not like some deep philosophical guide to life. It's one medicine to deal with personal loss and tragedy. People are really different in terms of what works for them.

The story in the book is still moving one. The fact that Mr. Frankl uses it to also advertize his professional services is fairly obvious, though.

Re: Holocaust Paradox: Long Lives for Those Who Survived

#58

Post by DoctorOetker »

DevX101 wrote: post #12

In addition to the other cm2187's accurate observation that this may be literal survivor bias, the other potential explanation is whether the control group was well designed. Israel is currently ~50% Sephardic Jews, descendants from Middle Eastern/North African peoples. Holocaust survivors are almost all Ashkenazi Jews (European ancestors). If the study was comparing Ashkenazi Jews in the test group vs a control grou…

what fraction of the pre WWII population in palestine was non-jewish?
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