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What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

circleci.com

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Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#51

Post by bpchaps »

e3b0c wrote: post #48
gwbas1c wrote: post #9

I firmly believe great software engineering managers are people who are adequate developers, but have excellent people skills. Why? They need to understand enough software at a high level to be able to manage, instead of turning lower-level details into management problems. But, they also need to find software development frustrating enough that they are happy to not have to do it every day.

I recently realized that there are roughly two kinds of people, namely people who are good at symbolic/abstract ideas and people who are good at real/physical/touchable things, which can be considered orthogonal to the extrovert/introvert categorization. For a software engineering team, I find it tends to be suboptimal to have a physical-thinking oriented manager who dislikes abstract, symbolic notions, even though t…

You might find this interesting -http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/08/analysis-vs-algebra-pre...

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#52

Post by jghn »

e3b0c wrote: post #48
gwbas1c wrote: post #9

I firmly believe great software engineering managers are people who are adequate developers, but have excellent people skills. Why? They need to understand enough software at a high level to be able to manage, instead of turning lower-level details into management problems. But, they also need to find software development frustrating enough that they are happy to not have to do it every day.

I recently realized that there are roughly two kinds of people, namely people who are good at symbolic/abstract ideas and people who are good at real/physical/touchable things, which can be considered orthogonal to the extrovert/introvert categorization. For a software engineering team, I find it tends to be suboptimal to have a physical-thinking oriented manager who dislikes abstract, symbolic notions, even though t…

This is interesting. I self-identify in the symbolic/abstract side of things and really struggle with how difficult it is when dealing with the real/physical/touchable camp. I've especially struggled with superiors who are in the latter group which tracks with what you say here. And as another point of anecdata I've personally been meandering my way into the leadership/management turf over recent years.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#53

Post by munchbunny »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #10
yingw787 wrote: post #7

I've been fortunate to have two great direct managers at the prior companies I've worked at, and one common thread they have is they've both been developers. I think working in the field before you command people who do so helps build empathy and understanding of the problem at hand, as well as how it all ties into the bigger picture. I've heard in the military officers that served in the enlisted ranks before commis…

Not sure if this is a counterpoint, but pretty much every direct manager I've had (except for one, and she was awesome) started their career as a programmer, and I was also a manager that went from programming->management. While I agree that it's best to have an expert in the field managing you, from my time as a manager I believe the "soft skills" of communication, emotional intelligence, empathy, organization, etc.…

I think there's something about programming day to day that actually makes it harder to manage. I used to be a PM and a people manager, IC engineer now, and I've found that my ability to convey concepts clearly has degraded because I spend a lot of time in the weeds. I have to purposefully step back to think about framing because I don't automatically have to do it.

I am an introvert, and dealing with people (as a manager) was mostly neutral, not really draining or energizing. That part wasn't a big deal and I enjoyed it enough. The draining part is when you have to make tough calls, when you have to tell people things they don't want to hear, or when you have to handle HR issues. That part is draining, but I'm pretty sure extroverted managers find that draining too.

I don't doubt that extroversion helps, but I certainly don't think introversion is an actual stopper.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#54

Post by taurath »

ep103 wrote: post #40
lmilcin wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked for Intel for a bit. I haven't stayed there for long but I have learned a lot about how great engineering management works. Best managers I met had almost nil technical knowledge or if they did they were not advertising it very much. They were gardeners. They made sure you were occupied, you provided value, you did what you liked and all projects that needed staff were allocated staff. They will meet wi…

As a dev that has been promoted to manage (not just lead, manage) a reasonably sized team, but is still expected to code regularly, what you're describing sounds like paradise. From both the management, and dev perspective.

If you have a reasonable sized team that you're expected to manage, you should not code at all, let alone regularly. You will fail at one always, but more often both. My rule - if you have 5 direct reports (any role) you can code light stuff, sometimes. If you have 8 (a full team) you should not code - you will drop stuff over time and morale will sink a lot.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#55

Post by taurath »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #10
yingw787 wrote: post #7

I've been fortunate to have two great direct managers at the prior companies I've worked at, and one common thread they have is they've both been developers. I think working in the field before you command people who do so helps build empathy and understanding of the problem at hand, as well as how it all ties into the bigger picture. I've heard in the military officers that served in the enlisted ranks before commis…

Not sure if this is a counterpoint, but pretty much every direct manager I've had (except for one, and she was awesome) started their career as a programmer, and I was also a manager that went from programming->management. While I agree that it's best to have an expert in the field managing you, from my time as a manager I believe the "soft skills" of communication, emotional intelligence, empathy, organization, etc.…

> If those interactions all take energy from you instead of give energy

Just to point out even for extroverts a difficult conversation is still draining. The regular conversations should at least be neutral though.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#57

Post by vecter »

> Engineering managers at CircleCI are now dedicated to people management: focused on development of a set of engineers, tech leads, and team leads. They hold regular 1:1s and career growth conversations with the engineers who report to them, and are responsible for goal setting, feedback, coaching, and mentoring for them. They also work across a set of teams to ensure team health, knowledge sharing, business value delivery and alignment across teams. This means that our engineers have managers who have great interest and investment in their personal and professional growth, and teams have someone to coach them through the product delivery process.

Was this not the case before? What were EMs doing then? This is the only definition of EM that I've ever known.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#58

Post by Moto7451 »

vecter wrote: post #57

> Engineering managers at CircleCI are now dedicated to people management: focused on development of a set of engineers, tech leads, and team leads. They hold regular 1:1s and career growth conversations with the engineers who report to them, and are responsible for goal setting, feedback, coaching, and mentoring for them. They also work across a set of teams to ensure team health, knowledge sharing, business value d…

I've worked at companies, and know others who work at companies, where being an Engineering Managers means you're 90% developer and 10% manager. You're expected to do one on ones, assign work, but mostly code.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#59

Post by otachack »

vecter wrote: post #57

> Engineering managers at CircleCI are now dedicated to people management: focused on development of a set of engineers, tech leads, and team leads. They hold regular 1:1s and career growth conversations with the engineers who report to them, and are responsible for goal setting, feedback, coaching, and mentoring for them. They also work across a set of teams to ensure team health, knowledge sharing, business value d…

I am assuming they did actual work alongside management responsibilities, which isn't really sustainable.

Re: What we've learned about hiring engineering managers

#60

Post by codegrappler »

stronglikedan wrote: post #18
gwbas1c wrote: post #9

I firmly believe great software engineering managers are people who are adequate developers, but have excellent people skills. Why? They need to understand enough software at a high level to be able to manage, instead of turning lower-level details into management problems. But, they also need to find software development frustrating enough that they are happy to not have to do it every day.

Or, like me, they love development and don't find it frustrating, but they would rather follow the money.

This is my struggle. Do you go the management route for the money or stay in development where the pressure, and pay, is lower...
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