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Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

reuters.com

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Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#51

Post by jayd16 »

tossaccount123 wrote: post #45
jayd16 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your manufacturing employer consumes steel and that steel is now more expensive it means less of those jobs, not more. You're only pulling money from other US citizens and companies so its not really a gain to the US overall. It increases the cost of US manufactured goods that have to buy tariff laden supplies. This ends up hurting US manufacturing exports over all. All of this assumes we actually do pay for US st…

That steel is only cheap short term. Once China has a monopoly they can charge whatever they want. The only reason Chinese steel is cheaper is because it's lower quality and their government subsidizes it with long term strategic intent

There's some merit to this argument. If your goal is to hurt China's competitiveness in spite of what it costs US buyers than its a legitimate strategy.

However, this policy is being sold as a way to help US manufacturers and that's not quite the same thing. The benefits could easily go to other imports with weaker tariffs. This coupled with the problem of hurting down stream US manufacturers means that the only benefit is hedging against a Chinese monopoly and not the direct benefits that are usually talked about.

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#52

Post by CamTin »

anonymous5133 wrote: post #47
dmix wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would consolidation result in a lower capacity? All that's happening is bigger companies becoming bigger while a mix of gov policy and market forces during downturns squeezes out the little guys. Which is standard practice in modern state-capitalist societies.

Bigger companies aren't going to buy up smaller production that is not efficient. The smaller production just goes offline and gets scrapped. Solar panel production is at the point where you need to be doing economies of scale to really churn a profit at it. You guys need to read up on what happens when a government subsidies something. The subsidies allows inefficient producers to stay in business and it also result…

If I run a firm with lots of capacity and a thriving overseas trade, why would I buy up a competitor with no overseas business just to shut down their plant?

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#53

Post by baybal2 »

tossaccount123 wrote: post #44
jayd16 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

explain how China is the world's fastest growing economy and has the fastest growing living standards while being one of, if not the most protectionist countries on earth? According to most economists and their textbooks their growth should be terrible because they are so anti free trade The only people who benefit from low tariffs are the rich, who can then outsource production and ship goods back into the country w…

USA and a number of Western countries are waaaay more protectionist than China.

The idea that China is the most protectionist country in the world is no more than a meme.

Ranks of ease of market entry are very objective proofs of that.

It gas been definitely easier to setup a viable business in China than in US for a few years now.

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#54

Post by lightedman »

philipkglass wrote: post #10
ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

Always over until it starts again. Note that the party is over (in this case) because it is threatening smaller businesses, not because there is a lack of capacity or that the "big guys" couldn't still make money at the reduced rate. In every industry where I have been aware of this this situation coming up (voluntary reduction in production in order to shore up prices), it works for a while and then people "cheat" a…

The solar industry is evolving fast enough that most dormant capacity left behind by bankrupt smaller producers probably isn't worth reactivating even if module prices rebound. These producers don't just have smaller annual capacities. They also have less sophisticated quality control, less automation, and older, slower generations of the automated tools they do have. Module assembly is simple enough that some of tho…

Jinko's polycrystalline cells are so thin as to be almost impossible to keep from breaking, something on the range of 150um. I've got a few sitting here on my desk. Even an ultra-low pressure vacuum pick and place breaks them half of the time.

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#55

Post by YinLuck- »

CamTin wrote: post #52
anonymous5133 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bigger companies aren't going to buy up smaller production that is not efficient. The smaller production just goes offline and gets scrapped. Solar panel production is at the point where you need to be doing economies of scale to really churn a profit at it. You guys need to read up on what happens when a government subsidies something. The subsidies allows inefficient producers to stay in business and it also result…

If I run a firm with lots of capacity and a thriving overseas trade, why would I buy up a competitor with no overseas business just to shut down their plant?

Because you will be buying it for less than the cost of the equipment in that plant + some of the best talent + their domestic customer list thrown in for free.

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#56

Post by YinLuck- »

baybal2 wrote: post #53
tossaccount123 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

explain how China is the world's fastest growing economy and has the fastest growing living standards while being one of, if not the most protectionist countries on earth? According to most economists and their textbooks their growth should be terrible because they are so anti free trade The only people who benefit from low tariffs are the rich, who can then outsource production and ship goods back into the country w…

USA and a number of Western countries are waaaay more protectionist than China. The idea that China is the most protectionist country in the world is no more than a meme. Ranks of ease of market entry are very objective proofs of that. It gas been definitely easier to setup a viable business in China than in US for a few years now.

>It gas been definitely easier to setup a viable business in China than in US for a few years now.

Where are you getting that information? Every international index disagrees with that assertion.

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#57

Post by Proven »

> Solar panel prices tumbled around 30 percent last year after China, the world’s largest producer, cut subsidies

In other words, bulk of the State-organized theft of taxpayer money has been successfully completed.

Similar story to Tesla's "success" with their taxpayer-subsidized products.

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#58

Post by baybal2 »

YinLuck- wrote: post #56
baybal2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA and a number of Western countries are waaaay more protectionist than China. The idea that China is the most protectionist country in the world is no more than a meme. Ranks of ease of market entry are very objective proofs of that. It gas been definitely easier to setup a viable business in China than in US for a few years now.

>It gas been definitely easier to setup a viable business in China than in US for a few years now. Where are you getting that information? Every international index disagrees with that assertion.

Ease of doing business report only deals with formal legal requirements and paperwork, but running business is not only about law/tax compliance.

Access to labour, facilities, depth and readiness of local market to accept new things - all that matters.

I am not agreeing with assessment that legal compliance in USA is easier than in China at all. USA has hideously complex tax system, you can't do a single thing without a lawyer, and any dealing with securities is past all hope for a person who have not purposefully studied that.

Re: Party is over for dirt-cheap solar panels, says China executive

#59

Post by throwaway-oid »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #3

Always over until it starts again. Note that the party is over (in this case) because it is threatening smaller businesses, not because there is a lack of capacity or that the "big guys" couldn't still make money at the reduced rate. In every industry where I have been aware of this this situation coming up (voluntary reduction in production in order to shore up prices), it works for a while and then people "cheat" a…

> The Chinese are notoriously fierce in their desire to make a buck...

I wonder, if we replaced "Chinese" with "Jews", if this comment would be so easily thrown around on HN.

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