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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#51

Post by darkpuma »

fb-denier wrote: post #39
pavel_lishin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> taking away people's ability to earn money On a single platform. Nobody's preventing Mr. Benjamin from making money; they're just not allowing him to use one specific platform. He's welcome to sign up for Hatreon, or to use a payment processor directly.

One does not simply use a payment processor directly. Stripe and PayPal both deplatformed within a week the Patreon alternative that the guy went to after being kicked off Patreon (SubscribeStar). Hatreon was also deplatformed by their payment processor, as noted below. In another recent instance, MasterCard demanded that Patreon kick off another person for political reasons [1]. Social network Gab is now accepting U…

> "MasterCard demanded that Patreon kick off another person for political reasons."

If true that's disturbing. At a certain point you have to wonder if we're getting close to the spirit of Marsh v. Alabama (e.g the constitutionality of restricting speech in towns that are privately owned by corporations.)

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#52

Post by orthecreedence »

raiflip wrote: post #45
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

This is a great comment. Honestly love the nuanced take, far too rare. The only point I would respectfully ad is that I'm not sure if we can enforce decentralization. Many markets, like payment services (like Visa, Paypal), tend towards a few large companies. Personally, I think the first amendment is an example where we as a society (at least in the US) said that people's freedom of expression trumps people's freedo…

I think you're right, many things tend toward centralization, large networks and infrastructure (and sometimes difficult-to-solve problems) being among them.

I personally "feel" (because I can't really form a hardened ideology around it) that the closer things get to infrastructure, the more neutral they should be. In other words, the more difficult it is to spin up a competitor to Company A, the more Company A should actively work to not censor or shape messages or ideas.

I also agree we cannot enforce decentralization. My hope is that one day, we can see the benefits of it as a people and collectively decide to go that route without coercion of any kind. Wishful thinking, probably =]. That won't stop me from trying to convince others of the benefits, though.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#53

Post by iguy »

orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

I don't know if it's centralisation so much as personification. Patreon wants to be a a friendly brand, part of people's self-image. And having chosen this, perhaps they can't afford to live and let live.

It's very difficult to imagine Bell Telephone (in their 100% monopoly days I mean) feeling responsible for what people discuss on their wires, or feeling a need to deny (say) pornographers service so that its other customers wouldn't feel tainted. Or Visa likewise today -- it's understood that other people will use the same plastic to pay for things you morally disapprove of, just as they could use cash. But it's positioned as a neutral carrier, and nobody cares (I think).

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#54

Post by cambalache »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #35
cambalache wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when the new payment company bans him, then what? And are you OK if Twitter bans all left leaning people just because of their beliefs? I tend to favor the smallest government possible, because I think private companies tend to do a better work in many areas (not all of them) so I dont like government intervening. But when you have an almost defacto monopoly in certain areas (google, facebook, twitter) banning pe…

> And when the new payment company bans him, then what? Then he'll learn a valuable lesson about what is and isn't owed to him in life. Why do you suppose that the world owes everyone a soapbox that dispenses money? > And are you OK if Twitter bans all left leaning people just because of their beliefs? I'd be miffed, but that's their right. For example, it seems like Tumblr is making almost that exact mistake, as did…

So would you agree with a new black listing in Hollywood for example?

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#55

Post by [deleted] »

apk-d wrote: post #5
darkpuma wrote: post #2

The real meat of the racist speech: > "This month, the site’s moderators received a complaint about Mr. Benjamin, who had risen to fame railing against diversity and feminism during the GamerGate movement in 2014. Mr. Benjamin used the N-word and anti-gay language during an interview posted to YouTube on Feb. 7, Patreon found." I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression Benjamin used that word to insult white sup…

Our descendants are going to be seriously confused by our practice of limiting or taking away people's ability to earn money because they publicly used a wrong word. Or so I hope, at least.

[deleted]

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#56

Post by ng12 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #37
ng12 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech as a concept has been around for a lot longer than the US government. The problem is if free speech is effectively banned from the internet due to the internet being controlled by a handful of private companies, do we still have free speech?

Let's stay on topic here; being banned from Patreon doesn't limit his speech at all.

But what happens when Patreon, Twitter, YouTube, Facebook, Reddit, Twitch and PayPal all work together to create collective censorship? Is your speech being limited if you're functionally blocked from the meaningfully accessible parts of the internet?

Yes, these are all private companies. In fact someone already tried to create an alternative Patreon (called Hatreon, iirc) that was shut down by Visa. Allowing censorship by private companies doesn't work if private companies control who gets to exist on the internet.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#57

Post by namlem »

apk-d wrote: post #5
darkpuma wrote: post #2

The real meat of the racist speech: > "This month, the site’s moderators received a complaint about Mr. Benjamin, who had risen to fame railing against diversity and feminism during the GamerGate movement in 2014. Mr. Benjamin used the N-word and anti-gay language during an interview posted to YouTube on Feb. 7, Patreon found." I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression Benjamin used that word to insult white sup…

Our descendants are going to be seriously confused by our practice of limiting or taking away people's ability to earn money because they publicly used a wrong word. Or so I hope, at least.

Our ancestors took away people's ability to earn a living, and sometimes much more than that, because of their ethnicity or sexual orientation. People can control what opinions they voice in public. No one is forced to make racist statements. I see nothing wrong with punishing people for their choices when those choices bring harm to others.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#58

Post by orthecreedence »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #38
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? Keep in mind that some of those viewpoints are "we live, others get eradicated".

I wrote my post with complete awareness of the fact that neo-nazis, and others like them, exist. I don't really see what your comment adds to the discussion.

Yes, some of the ideas are objectively bad. That doesn't mean there isn't a growing censorship movement, which incidentally often uses "nazi" lingo as an excuse to selectively silence people.

Also note that I gave a nod to, and firmly believe in, not inciting violence as a core tenet of free speech. Nazis can believe whatever vile shit they want to, as long as they don't act on it.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#59

Post by krick »

vowelless wrote: post #29

Looks like this guy is from Europe. Do they have the same stigma for those words? Are we okay applying American standards to their words? That would be a slippery slope. Some nations consider speech against their sultans or their deens as hate speech. Will patreon take the side of those governments or the vast majority of those populations (who will gladly watch blasphemers get imprisoned)? On the other hand, should…

I won't be speaking for all Europeans, as all this craze you labeled as "American standards" certainly has it's influence, but I can confirm all these stories are pretty funny to read for a person, whom I'd label as a "sane European".

But I don't think it is the issue here, anyway. I might not feel the righteous rage reading the quotations from these Benjamin guy, but I might on the other topic. So imagining that I do feel offended by his words (and there's plenty ways to make it so): is it still ok to ban him from the platform? I'll leave you to decide for yourself, but either you want the freedom of speech or you want the society where everybody thinks and behaves exactly as everybody else.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#60

Post by [deleted] »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #27
darkpuma wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. I've found a transcript published by patreon: https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-patreon-a9026e52c2cf?gi... It's... pretty vitriolic. I'm not totally comfortable with even quoting the redacted version, but here goes nothing: > “I just can’t be bothered with people who chose to treat me like this. It’s really annoying. Like, I — . You’re acting like a bunch of n_____s, just so you know. You act like w…

Reading this as a straight white guy, the slurs aren't as offensive as the whole underlying philosophy and line of thinking. Although I like that the No True Scotsman fallacy leaking through the cracks.

[deleted]
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