German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#51

Post by jaddood » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

galago wrote: post #31

gammateam wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The german entry for Büsingen is MUCH more detailed https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Büsingen_am_Hochrhein This really frustrates me about Wikipedia because its like a totally parallel site and experience thats just right there and can even have conflicting information. Not helping the world as much as we think, but its so close to being able to.

Can't we just all agree to speak English? No, I don't think that would be a good idea. Perhaps they could write a (albeit imperfect) tool to alert readers when another language has a much larger or more comprehensive article. I'm sure the Wikipedians have considered the fact that some information is better presented in a particular language. For example, an article about Shakespeare will be more precise in English th…

Did you just forget Esperanto?

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#52

Post by jwr » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 6:48 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #33

jwr wrote: post #32

This is a good time to consider what a ridiculous concept "borders" are, especially within the EU. What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Borders are necessary because of power-hungry politicians: without borders, entire levels of governments would become unnecessary. This is why we hear so much about "patriotism" these days.

> What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Cultures? People on one both sides of the border generally have different culture and hierarchies of values. Thanks to borders, every nation gets to organize their piece of earth as they see fit (at least in democracies).

I don't think that applies anymore these days. I am from Poland and culturally I have more in common with most Germans than with many of my compatriots.

And my point is that the idea of "their piece of earth" is outdated. Apart from silliness and unnecessary politicians it leads to real problems, like countries deciding that they will burn oil and coal on "their piece of earth" and not care about climate catastrophe at all.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#53

Post by mikhailfranco » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 6:48 PM UTC

stevoski wrote: post #38

IAmEveryone wrote: post #25

Which reminds me of the rather young saying: “No fences make for excellent neighbors.” As to the bike path: that photo made my legs itch. Old train tracks are an excellent resource for bike paths, at least for recreational riding. They are flat, because trains are unable to climb anything more than 2% or so. Plus no cars, perfect width, and (because they are established rather recently) often perfectly smooth pavemen…

Can you tell us what cycle paths in Spain are on former rail trails? I live in Spain and would love to experience some of these.

http://www.viasverdes.com/en/

http://www.andalucia.com/rural/walking/viasverde.htm

I ran some of this via verde a few years ago on a very hot and dusty day. I finished at old Olvera station which has a bar serving very cold beer served in a frozen glass - heaven. The white hill-town of Olvera itself is also worth a visit:

http://www.andalucia.com/rural/walking/viasverde-olvera.htm

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#54

Post by OscarCunningham » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 6:49 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #33

jwr wrote: post #32

This is a good time to consider what a ridiculous concept "borders" are, especially within the EU. What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Borders are necessary because of power-hungry politicians: without borders, entire levels of governments would become unnecessary. This is why we hear so much about "patriotism" these days.

> What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Cultures? People on one both sides of the border generally have different culture and hierarchies of values. Thanks to borders, every nation gets to organize their piece of earth as they see fit (at least in democracies).

There's some funny business going on in the phrase "their piece of land". It's not like each citizen has the same ownership rights of every bit of the country. If I own a bit of land in Japan, why does it suddenly become "their land" for the purpose of determining laws?

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#55

Post by jwr » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 6:51 PM UTC

rhodac wrote: post #36

jwr wrote: post #32

This is a good time to consider what a ridiculous concept "borders" are, especially within the EU. What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Borders are necessary because of power-hungry politicians: without borders, entire levels of governments would become unnecessary. This is why we hear so much about "patriotism" these days.

If you want to have government provided services funded by taxes, you need to determine who will be paying those taxes. Borders provide a clean division between the paying customers for a particular government's services, and those who are not.

Agreed — but do we really need so many governments? Why not have a local regional level (city/region, where you live and where things really matter to you) and then a continental level (EU, US, China, Russia, etc)?

I really do believe that we have way too many governments, and borders are an artificial construct used to support politicians.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#56

Post by gnulinux » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

rhodac wrote: post #36

jwr wrote: post #32

This is a good time to consider what a ridiculous concept "borders" are, especially within the EU. What makes land and people on one side of an arbitrary line so different from land and people on the other side of it? Borders are necessary because of power-hungry politicians: without borders, entire levels of governments would become unnecessary. This is why we hear so much about "patriotism" these days.

If you want to have government provided services funded by taxes, you need to determine who will be paying those taxes. Borders provide a clean division between the paying customers for a particular government's services, and those who are not.

This strikes me as a naive, European way to understand borders (governments are services, you get to choose who to pay your taxes to). Most of the world's people are born to governments they do not endorse, and do not want to pay taxes to, yet they still have to. I was born in a shitty country and even though I've been living in the US last 5 years, I still have duties to my home country such as taxes, military, community service etc... And since I'm not a US citizen yet -- even though everyone I care and my life is here -- I cannot reject these duties to my country since I need its services such as providing me with a passport, an embassy (for legal help) etc. Besides US can randomly throw me away any time it feels like, and the one country I can always go is my home country.

I love how these sort of bureaucratic things are so simple in the EU. For the rest of us, it is much more complex, and for most of us living in a country we like is a dream that can hardly be achieved. Nearly all my childhood friends living back home are trying to escape their country but it's not that easy (you need to find a job that accepts H1B for US, or equivalent bureaucratic mambo jambo for the EU).

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#57

Post by t0mas88 » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

FigBug wrote: post #40

zaarn wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random border checks are normal, even in Schengen, usually it's by Customs, sometimes it's highway/Autobahn police. Spotchecks are perfectly normal, though they've been elevated on some borders due to the refugee crisis (atleast in germany).

If you live in the EU are you supposed to carry your passport whenever you move between countries?

Yes, but an ID card is enough. Most, contrary to the US, have a passport anyway, but it is not required.

Even within most EU countries it is mandatory to have an ID card or drivers license on you if stopped by the police anyway, so the border doesn't make much of a difference.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#58

Post by t0mas88 » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 7:05 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #44

FigBug wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you live in the EU are you supposed to carry your passport whenever you move between countries?

At least in Germany you have a legal duty to have a passport or ID card, if a police officer asks for one but you don't have it, you'll either be brought into the next police station (if you don't have a legal address) until it clears up or show up at your nearest police station within 24 hours or up to a week, depending on the situation. Though generally if you don't have it, you usually get an oral warning and have…

Yes, Netherlands has this law, but the fine is around € 90 if you don't have it, not 3000.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#59

Post by Scarblac » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 7:11 PM UTC

ThinkingGuy wrote: post #50

Faaak wrote: post #2

> There is no border control due to the Schengen Agreement, therefore daily life is not really impacted. That's the most interesting part to me. I cross the border every day to go to work. Yet, when a friend came to visit us and we we to the city, he couldn't believe that we were crossing a border that easily (France-Switzerland). It was literally an open fence with a sign welcoming you. It's really awesome when you…

Schengen Agreement was only implemented relatively recently (80's/90's?). How were border controls near these enclaves/exclaves handled for all the years before that?

The BeNeLux is older than Schengen (september 1944, founded by the governments of Belgium/Netherlands/Luxembourg while in exile from their occupied countries!). It eliminated border controls between Belgium and the Netherlands.

Before that, I don't know and can't find them at the moment. Before the 20th century border controls didn't really exist yet. In WW1 the situation was special because Belgium was under German occupation but the Netherlands were neutral, the Belgian enclaves were bits of free Belgium heavily used by the resistance. To prove their neutrality the Netherlands were forced to put a fence around it with strict controls.

Re: German exclaves in Belgium separated by a bicycle path from the rest of Germany

#60

Post by Ma8ee » Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 7:12 PM UTC

jaddood wrote: post #51

galago wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't we just all agree to speak English? No, I don't think that would be a good idea. Perhaps they could write a (albeit imperfect) tool to alert readers when another language has a much larger or more comprehensive article. I'm sure the Wikipedians have considered the fact that some information is better presented in a particular language. For example, an article about Shakespeare will be more precise in English th…

Did you just forget Esperanto?

How so?