Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#51

Post by resters » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 4:59 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #38

resters wrote: post #37

Hackers breaching US Navy contractors tells us one important thing: That the US Navy is not doing adequate due diligence on the firms it allow to be contractors. This story is part of the campaign to present China as an unethical, capable adversary and threat. In reality, China wants to trade peacefully with the US and the aggression is nearly 100% on the US side and is meant to garner all the benefits of threat-orie…

> In reality, China wants to trade peacefully with the US and the aggression is nearly 100% on the US side You don't need to make this claim to support the rest of your point. I agree with the gist of your comment but think this point makes it easier to attack the overall message. Personally, I think China is trading with the goal of jump starting their economy, and then seeing where they end up. China's incentives a…

> You don't need to make this claim to support the rest of your point.

True

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#52

Post by treebeard901 » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 5:02 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #46

killjoywashere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that what you end up defending is the right of more malicious actors to acquire technology from the US below cost through low-cost, high-yield hacking.

Do I? Or do I just not help to murder civilians on the other side of the planet? How can you be so sure that I’d only be helping the good side of the DoD?

From my point of view, both of you are right and wrong. Being a conscientious objector to war is not the same thing as aiding an enemy. However, Defending against hacking is different from providing for offensive weapons. In other words, defending government institutions takes precedence over the policies of government institutions. The policies are decided at the ballot box.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#53

Post by analognoise » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 5:44 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #31

psychedictic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment temporally corresponded with multiple simultaneous downvotes of my comment. There's no justification at all for informing any of our adversaries of details related to spying activity on them. Intentional or not, Mr. snowden's action have hurt USA.

We aren't at war with China, they are not our adversaries. Any harm caused to the US was a result of harm we had done to them.

The people who have 1M people in "re-education camps", claim ownership of Taiwan, have been building artificial islands to stake their "territory" in the South China Sea, and just made Xi de facto emperor for life?

Are you sure we aren't adversaries? Because we certainly don't seem to be ideologically aligned!

Don't get me wrong, we've got fucking problems, but we're not disappearing artists and sending people to live in other people's houses to spy on them directly. China has chosen a path of dictatorial horse-shit of its own accord - the US didn't push them into it.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#54

Post by nitwit005 » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 6:17 AM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

The general issues of compensation and the beurocratic aspects of the work seem to be much larger issues than any lack of patriotism.

I'd note that the civilian side of the government has similar struggles.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#55

Post by killjoywashere » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 6:40 AM UTC

lawrenceyan wrote: post #48

killjoywashere wrote: post #27

A non-trivial bit of the problem is the highly fashionable attitude of refusing to do work that helps the Department of Defense. The fact that skilled labor is a limited resource for both nations, which means refusing to help is at least similar to aiding foreign powers, which are statistically dictatorships of one kind or another, seems to not factor into the set of moral ethoses that such folks espouse. Remember, i…

Your opinion is extremely arrogant, perhaps even more so than it is misinformed. The reasons for why you see a dearth of technical skilled labor entering the government workforce is a complex issue and is nowhere that black and white. Since you mention military weaponry specifically though, the primary problem is in many academics/researchers being adverse to contributing to military projects. But can you really blam…

Ah, no, strong cybersecurity for the US Government would make the cost of killing people higher.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#56

Post by killjoywashere » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 6:44 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #47

icanhazcoins wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, I find it intellectually lazy to believe that assisting the military is morally wrong. What I think people (and in particular Americans) fail to consider is that if you really do feel that the political system is so corrupted that the will of the people has been subverted, what that actually morally requires you to do is to overthrow it. You cannot say "Oh well I didn't vote for the guy who started the…

> I find it intellectually lazy to believe that assisting the military is morally wrong Even if you view the military as an amoral tool, then it's still immoral to contribute to its strength while it is under immoral control. > You are responsible for everything that happens and is happening, and if you really believe that the system is so badly broken that we are involved in illegitimate wars then you need to take r…

> then the question becomes to do what?

If you write code and know anything about security, one of the biggest impacts you could make would be in securing US government systems. Even if you are German or Brazilian, securing US Government systems would make the world safer than securing your own government.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#57

Post by mindslight » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 7:23 AM UTC

killjoywashere wrote: post #56

mindslight wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it intellectually lazy to believe that assisting the military is morally wrong Even if you view the military as an amoral tool, then it's still immoral to contribute to its strength while it is under immoral control. > You are responsible for everything that happens and is happening, and if you really believe that the system is so badly broken that we are involved in illegitimate wars then you need to take r…

> then the question becomes to do what? If you write code and know anything about security, one of the biggest impacts you could make would be in securing US government systems. Even if you are German or Brazilian, securing US Government systems would make the world safer than securing your own government.

You must have severely misread my comment. Securing USG's systems is certainly not going to prevent the US military [industrial complex] from attacking arbitrary countries for fun and profit.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#58

Post by killjoywashere » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 7:27 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #46

killjoywashere wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is that what you end up defending is the right of more malicious actors to acquire technology from the US below cost through low-cost, high-yield hacking.

Do I? Or do I just not help to murder civilians on the other side of the planet? How can you be so sure that I’d only be helping the good side of the DoD?

Let's assume there is no good side of the DoD. Let's assume that the military is 100% teeth-gnashing devil dogs with nuclear weapons. Which is what they aspire to, I assure you.

Two things, 1) whether they have a $700 budget or $700B budget, the DoD executes the orders of elected civilians.

2) Don't you still want to make it as expensive as humanly possible for other countries to get the plans to those weapons? Even if you live in Paraguay, rouge states with nuclear weapons increase the cost of international economic collaboration and thus decrease your quality of life. Securing the US Government's weapons information is in your best interest.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#59

Post by lyrachord » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 7:51 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #31

psychedictic wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment temporally corresponded with multiple simultaneous downvotes of my comment. There's no justification at all for informing any of our adversaries of details related to spying activity on them. Intentional or not, Mr. snowden's action have hurt USA.

We aren't at war with China, they are not our adversaries. Any harm caused to the US was a result of harm we had done to them.

Korean War, Vietnam War, U know? NO, I DON'T think that.

Re: Chinese Hackers Breach U.S. Navy Contractors

#60

Post by boomboomsubban » Sat, Dec 15, 2018, 8:41 AM UTC

analognoise wrote: post #53

boomboomsubban wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren't at war with China, they are not our adversaries. Any harm caused to the US was a result of harm we had done to them.

The people who have 1M people in "re-education camps", claim ownership of Taiwan, have been building artificial islands to stake their "territory" in the South China Sea, and just made Xi de facto emperor for life? Are you sure we aren't adversaries? Because we certainly don't seem to be ideologically aligned! Don't get me wrong, we've got fucking problems, but we're not disappearing artists and sending people to liv…

>Are you sure we aren't adversaries? Because we certainly don't seem to be ideologically aligned!

None of those things pose a true threat to America, and who benefits from treating them as adversaries because of ideological differences?

>China has chosen a path of dictatorial horse-shit of its own accord - the US didn't push them into it.

Though there are strong arguments that US and other Western powers did push them into this situation, if you view this as a path they chose why would you oppose it? We tried controlling their path before, and countless millions of Chinese died as a result.