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Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

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Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is being worked on! It’s called Orchid: https://www.orchid.com/

Is there more info about active development? That site doesn't say much. I found some GitHub repos that were last updated in the summer[0]. It's going to be unfortunate if they stay with AGPL. 0 - https://github.com/orchidsource

(I am now in charge of technology at Orchid. None of that source code is relevant to our project. I am sorry for the confusion.)

Can you explain why you are concerned with the usage of AGPL? Are you hoping to make a closed-source hosted fork eventually?

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#52
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there more info about active development? That site doesn't say much. I found some GitHub repos that were last updated in the summer[0]. It's going to be unfortunate if they stay with AGPL. 0 - https://github.com/orchidsource

(I am now in charge of technology at Orchid. None of that source code is relevant to our project. I am sorry for the confusion.) Can you explain why you are concerned with the usage of AGPL? Are you hoping to make a closed-source hosted fork eventually?

> Can you explain why you are concerned with the usage of AGPL? Are you hoping to make a closed-source hosted fork eventually?

This can get very copy-left philosophical very quickly, so I'll be brief. For transit technology, especially if adoption matters, the less a license infects downstream projects the better for ecosystem growth. For example, I have an open source Tor library that is MIT licensed and it statically links Tor. I want the world to use my library, commercial/closed and open alike. I would never be able to do that with Orchid and therefore would not touch the tech. Make what you build on your network AGPL, but the underpinnings themselves should be as restrictionless as possible. These are my opinions and I understand the other opinion of "if you want the right to use our stuff, you have to abide by our openness rules on your stuff" but just know that you are trading adoption for principles.

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#53
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am now in charge of technology at Orchid. None of that source code is relevant to our project. I am sorry for the confusion.) Can you explain why you are concerned with the usage of AGPL? Are you hoping to make a closed-source hosted fork eventually?

> Can you explain why you are concerned with the usage of AGPL? Are you hoping to make a closed-source hosted fork eventually? This can get very copy-left philosophical very quickly, so I'll be brief. For transit technology, especially if adoption matters, the less a license infects downstream projects the better for ecosystem growth. For example, I have an open source Tor library that is MIT licensed and it statical…

FWIW, you are in fact talking to a team of people who are core Free Software people (such as Brian Fox, who was the first person employed by the Free Software Foundation)... but like, it must be pointed out that your Tor library is almost certainly a client library, and the license of the Tor server you are accessing would not affect the ability for people to use it: "statically linking Tor" is kind of simplistic, as it assumes Tor is a monolithic component (and maybe it strangely is... I honestly have never looked much at its code).

In case it helps immediately clarify: you absolutely will be able to use the Orchid platform to build commercial, closed source distributed, semi-distributed, and even centralized applications.

For philosophical background on this, I encourage reading the position of Richard Stallman on why the Ogg Vorbis library should not be licensed under GPL. Our mission (to decentralize software and communication) causes similar quirks.

https://lwn.net/2001/0301/a/rms-ov-license.php3

(Exactly what the boundaries are on the components and under what license they will be released is thereby not yet finalized as we continue to work on architecture, but there are at least a couple things we are building that will seriously be released under 0-BSD.)

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or are all purveyors of the 'free market' automatically heroes in your eyes? No, I don't even like the guy. Why must I consider someone a hero to feel they deserve a trial for their punished actions?

A trial did occur for Ross Ulbricht; I don't understand your point.

If someone is accused of X, but you "get them" for Y, and the sentencing is based on the fact that they "did" X... you never had a trial that proved that they did X, so anything you think you know about their guilt of X shouldn't be relevant to their sentence for Y. Because you don't really know.

And, even if you know mathematically without a doubt that "they did it" in point-of-fact, and you have all the evidence to back you up such that you're really sure that if you did have a trial, it'd be an open-and-shut case... you still can't assume. Because it's not about whether you see guilt or innocence when you look at the evidence; it's about whether the jury sees guilt or innocence when they look at the evidence.

Jury nullification means a jury can just decide, arbitrarily, that somebody's not guilty of something. And then double-jeopardy means that you can't ask that question again. It's been resolved, permanently: the accused has been declared innocent, in the eyes of the law—however strong your proof was! And any further judgements by the courts have to take, as input, that innocent verdict that came out of the trial; not the proof-of-guilt that went in but didn't survive.

What that implies, to me, is that in the Al Capone example, he should never have been treated as anything other than a regular tax evader, and should only have received a regular tax-evader's sentence.

I'm reminded heavily of the recent p-hacking controversy in science. Imagine a world where we "pre-register" a trial when an investigation is begun, and are then forced to go through with it (and pretend the government has the infinite money required to enable this.) In this world, that trial would likely declare the suspect innocent a lot of the time... and all the evidence gathered to do so would be "used up" by that trial. You couldn't turn around and use the same evidence to prove that "because he's guilty of X, it's more likely that..." anything else. Because, in the eyes of the law, he isn't guilty of X, and anything that proves that, doesn't. The evidence itself was nullified when the verdict was.

In the real world, just to save time and money, we don't bother to prosecute trials we know we'll lose. But shouldn't the effects still be the same as if we did? An optimization shouldn't change the semantics of the system.

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of problems company could have?

I ran an exit node at home for a couple months. Within minutes of my dynamic IP being updated from my ISP, cloudflare could figure out that I was an exit node, and then would fail to differentiate my own, non tor traffic, with that of the traffic exiting my node. The result being every single cloudflare backed website will hit you with a captcha on every page you view. My ISP would also randomly shut off my connectio…

Exit node, sure, but hosting a regular node should not pose any threat.

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of problems company could have?

I ran an exit node at home for a couple months. Within minutes of my dynamic IP being updated from my ISP, cloudflare could figure out that I was an exit node, and then would fail to differentiate my own, non tor traffic, with that of the traffic exiting my node. The result being every single cloudflare backed website will hit you with a captcha on every page you view. My ISP would also randomly shut off my connectio…

People associate TOR with unsavory activity because TOR is used for unsavory activity. Running an exit node on a link you care about is insanity.

The main reason I have never run an exit node is fear that some overzealous LEO trying to make a name for himself is going to trace an IP off of a kiddie porn or drug market to my house and send in SWAT to break all of my windows and tie me up in court for months before deciding that charging me as an accomplice probably won't work this time because I didn't opt for the public defender.

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> likely that those messages were sent by FBI agents trying to frame him Do you have anything from a legitimate source on this? I'd like to read more. My understanding of this entire thing came largely from brief news reports on it.

You can read about the corrupt FBI agents here: https://www.wired.com/2016/01/ross-ulbrichts-defense-focuses... I recall reading that the FBI had admin access to the site at the time the incriminating messages were sent, which I'm still looking for a source for, so it's quite likely that the messages were sent by the corrupt agents. Particularly when you consider the libertarian ideology around Ross and the site in g…

I don't think it's out of the question that he got in over his head and said "ok" to a guy offering to make the problem go away.

For what it's worth, the FBI agents on that case ended up going to jail as well. The case was a huge mess.

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#58
post #5
post #2

It mentions mixmaster and mixminion, but those projects seem to have died. I feel like they are needed more than ever.

Indeed. I've often thought that such high-latency mix-nets (with their potentially superior resistance to traffic analysis) would be a nice complement to low-latency networks like Tor.

The downside is that browsing the web on a service like that sucks ass. Tor trades off some security for a basic level of user experience.

Sadly, modern web design makes stuff like WWWoffle less useful than it used to be. Plus it's difficult to set up fully anonymous services on the far side of the link, I mean you're using Tor for a reason, and leaving breadcrumbs on the far side of the network is risky.

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#59
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there more info about active development? That site doesn't say much. I found some GitHub repos that were last updated in the summer[0]. It's going to be unfortunate if they stay with AGPL. 0 - https://github.com/orchidsource

(I am now in charge of technology at Orchid. None of that source code is relevant to our project. I am sorry for the confusion.) Can you explain why you are concerned with the usage of AGPL? Are you hoping to make a closed-source hosted fork eventually?

Just want to chime in and say thank you for building free software. :)

Re: Tor: The Second-Generation Onion Router (2004)

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I ran an exit node at home for a couple months. Within minutes of my dynamic IP being updated from my ISP, cloudflare could figure out that I was an exit node, and then would fail to differentiate my own, non tor traffic, with that of the traffic exiting my node. The result being every single cloudflare backed website will hit you with a captcha on every page you view. My ISP would also randomly shut off my connectio…

People associate TOR with unsavory activity because TOR is used for unsavory activity. Running an exit node on a link you care about is insanity. The main reason I have never run an exit node is fear that some overzealous LEO trying to make a name for himself is going to trace an IP off of a kiddie porn or drug market to my house and send in SWAT to break all of my windows and tie me up in court for months before dec…

Exit nodes only handle traffic leaving the Tor network to clearnet sites. Nobody is going to run a child porn site or drug market on the clearnet.
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