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Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

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Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#51
Lots of security flaws in code recently. FB and Google+ both leaked, Instagram had a minor leak a week or so ago. It's hard to put blame, I've coded just a bit in my life but I get it how hard it is to write a truly secure and efficient code. Well, on the bright side users can protect themselves against MITM attacks by using a VPN. I'm using Surfshark right now, have tried Zenmate, PIA before, but had some minor issues and wanted to change provider. Surfshark looks pretty secure, they have been audited recently by Cure53 and the outcome was positive. Decided to buy it after that, they offered "BLACKSHARK" coupon which gave a nice discount, maybe it still works. Some providers tend to keep Black Friday discounts a bit longer.

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#52
post #4
post #2

> the software was also installing a root certificate into the Trusted Root CA Certificate store. This kind of stuff shouldn't even be legal.

As a bit of a layman, is there even any legitimate reason at all (other than a user installing it in their own machine for reverse engineering purposes) for anyone to install a root certificate anymore? I could understand it if it was a small company doing so at the time when certificates were expensive, but Sennheiser has plenty of money and certificates can be obtained for free nowadays.

Stupid question.

Who should have the ability to install root CA certs?

I like using HTTPS instead of HTTP, so I need some installed. Who should be responsible for managing them?

And before you say the CABF, they're ultimatately not the ones who decide what gets installed on your computer. The answer to that question is much more complicated.

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#53
post #9

Have any hardware companies ever written good accompanying software? From all the custom-ui graphics card config nonsense to utilities that phone home of their own accord, to things like this which are laughably awful. I feel glad I left for the mild shores of Linux in the early 00s.

Yeah, because on Linux the community has to support the hardware because the manufacturer doesn't even bother. Sounds way better...

OpenBSD's official FAQ has this to say about Flash:

Adobe's Flash plugin is distributed in binary form only, and they do not provide a native OpenBSD version. Considering their security record, we thank them for this neglect.

The situation is equivalent here; given the kind of software that hardware manufacturers tend to write, I'm quite happy to take volunteer efforts over what they produce.

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#54
post #4
post #2

> the software was also installing a root certificate into the Trusted Root CA Certificate store. This kind of stuff shouldn't even be legal.

As a bit of a layman, is there even any legitimate reason at all (other than a user installing it in their own machine for reverse engineering purposes) for anyone to install a root certificate anymore? I could understand it if it was a small company doing so at the time when certificates were expensive, but Sennheiser has plenty of money and certificates can be obtained for free nowadays.

There was never a good reason to install a root certificate for the purpose of speaking securely to your own gear or web services. In that case, you don't need to add them to the root trust store, you just need to create an SSL context that has those certificates set as trusted.

However, the problem is, nobody understands SSL properly. Among the people who don't understand SSL properly is, alas, a number of people writing SSL libraries. Not the actual SSL libraries like OpenSSL, but all the surrounding libraries to make it "easy to use", which includes libraries that try to make HTTP easy to use and abstract the difference between HTTP and HTTPS. Pretty much every "ease of use" library I have ever seen accomplishes its ease of use by dropping features from the underlying SSL support, but it's clear they often don't understand why those features were there and the consequences of dropping them.

I have a particular case where I've got some Perl code that is literally 4 levels deep in "SSL ease of use" code, with pretty much every layer dropping SSL features along the way (even the base level Net::SSLeay is missing a lot of stuff once you go beyond the basics, and it only gets worse as the stack gets higher). Once I had to poke support for a certain feature all the way down through the entire stack because it got dropped really early.

So what you need to do in this case is create your own root store of trust, and then stick your own certs in there from some .pems or something, and then use that to initialize SSL on your connection. But it's complicated to do that at the base level of a lot of SSL libraries, and this is often one of the first features to be "abstracted away" by support libraries, and a lot of HTTP libraries end up trying to "abstract away" SSL so thoroughly that they don't even have parameters to control the SSL elements of the connection, and if they do, they have some ad-hoc selection of random bits that someone once needed, rather than comprehensive support.

The upshot is that I'd consider it likely that they were using one of these libraries, and the only way they could see to get their certificates trusted was to stick them in the default root store, because that's the only thing that would work with such libraries. You can also find web pages and such recommending this approach. It's also possible they just came across one of these web pages or something and put stuff in the root without realizing what it really meant, even though their library allowed them to do everything I said, because it's way easier to slam something into the default trust store than write the code to create your own at run time. (It ought to be easy to write that code. The rather nice Go TLS library makes it almost as easy as I say it is; create cert store, add certificate, set that as your root trust, modulo a bit of error handling it really is just about that many lines of code. But the "ease of use" libraries can really get in the way, when the people adding the "ease of use" abstractions themselves don't understand what that means, or why you might want/need it, or how to make it easy.)

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#55
post #23
post #9

Have any hardware companies ever written good accompanying software? From all the custom-ui graphics card config nonsense to utilities that phone home of their own accord, to things like this which are laughably awful. I feel glad I left for the mild shores of Linux in the early 00s.

Apple?

Could I draw your attention to iTunes for Windows?

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#56
post #23
post #9

Have any hardware companies ever written good accompanying software? From all the custom-ui graphics card config nonsense to utilities that phone home of their own accord, to things like this which are laughably awful. I feel glad I left for the mild shores of Linux in the early 00s.

Apple?

iTunes for Windows is hot garbage

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#57
post #23
post #9

Have any hardware companies ever written good accompanying software? From all the custom-ui graphics card config nonsense to utilities that phone home of their own accord, to things like this which are laughably awful. I feel glad I left for the mild shores of Linux in the early 00s.

Apple?

I just love when Bonjour destroys my Winsock config

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#58
post #55
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple?

Could I draw your attention to iTunes for Windows?

Note that the grandparent said: Have any hardware companies ever written good accompanying software?

I think this should be read as an existential quantification. Sure, not all Apple software is great, but for a hardware company Apple has made a lot of great software (or: for a software company, Apple has made a lot of awesome hardware).

Re: Sennheiser Headset Software Could Allow Man-In-the-Middle SSL Attacks

#60
post #44
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the problem is not that they add a root ca to the store. Yes there is. There is no valid reason for a glorified headphone driver to mess with what website your browser trusts.

There is a valid reason: to enable website-to-hardware communication (i.e, to provide a javascript-based api for websites to interface with that hardware). Ideally browsers should implement well standardized, secure APIs for all devices in the world, but we are far from there. Until browser vendors implement the API you need, the only option is to employ this trick. Of course, companies should NOT reuse the same cert…

> Ideally browsers should implement well standardized, secure APIs for all devices in the world, but we are far from there. Until browser vendors implement the API you need, the only option is to employ this trick

well not only browsers, os's in general ;)

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