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Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

sciencemag.org

51–60 of 98 posts

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem with regarding intelligence as just a collection of externally-observable behaviors. We simply don't know, at this point, the extent to which the orangutans are choosing this pattern of behavior as a result of considering the possible outcomes of the alternatives. As someone who spends a fair amount of time hiking in woodlands, I am familiar with the squeak of a chipmunk dashing for its burrow aft…

True, but note that this is also true of observations about other humans. How do I know that the behaviour of other humans isn't just instinctive? I'd argue only assuming that mt experience is similar to theirs. I think it is far more reasonable to extend this line of thinking to orangutans, than it is to jave different standards for humans and other apes...

> How do I know that the behaviour of other humans isn't just instinctive?

Ultimately, you don't. If you contemplate this sort of issue long enough, you will likely go through the three stages of solipsism:

    1) What a ridiculous idea!
    2) There must be a way to prove that this is wrong...
    3) Occam, can I borrow your razor?

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#52
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a relievingly admirable way to look at these creatures. I find the English "it" an exceptionally tiring feature. There are so many prejudices and world views embded in our languages. We call ourselves hackers, but where's a hackaday.io or hackathons for human language, the ubiquitous communication medium?

With 6500 languages to choose from, I'm sure there are more than a few incorporating a world-view which aligns with yours. Rather than create something entirely new, wouldn't it be more reasonable to delve into what is already on offer?

Germans have a saying: Deutsche Sprache, schwere Sprache.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#54

Puts on critic hat The article is making a claim that can be summarized as... the cognitive capacity to share with conspecifics something learned more than 120 seconds ago, is unique to humans and orangutans They also inform you that bees have this capacity. That should be enough to make anyone skeptical. It seems like they identified a particular behavior unique among apes to Orangutans - suppressing vocalization in…

why not ? What's to say that mental computations can't come in discrete units ?

Maybe communication about the past is a self-contained computation that can evolve independently in brain networks as diverse as those of bees, orangutans and humans

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#55

Puts on critic hat The article is making a claim that can be summarized as... the cognitive capacity to share with conspecifics something learned more than 120 seconds ago, is unique to humans and orangutans They also inform you that bees have this capacity. That should be enough to make anyone skeptical. It seems like they identified a particular behavior unique among apes to Orangutans - suppressing vocalization in…

Social insects have a way of spoiling intelligence tests.

The mirror test is a good example. To recognize yourself in mirror, you need to understand that you are a person. Not many animals recognize themselves: apes, some ravens, elephants dolphins... all usual suspects known to be intellegnt.

Give them a mirror and once they figure it out they spend the next hour making faces and checking out their own ass. Mark their face and they'll try to clean it in the mirror.

Then ants.

Ants seem to get mirrors too. So either ants are self conscious or the test is no good.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#56
post #37

Puts on critic hat The article is making a claim that can be summarized as... the cognitive capacity to share with conspecifics something learned more than 120 seconds ago, is unique to humans and orangutans They also inform you that bees have this capacity. That should be enough to make anyone skeptical. It seems like they identified a particular behavior unique among apes to Orangutans - suppressing vocalization in…

I agree with the general call for skepticism against the idea that displaced reference is so unique in the animal kingdom. Where I do not agree, is the implicit argument of "if a bee can do it then it's trivial". Within the animal kingdom, the sophistication of the honey bee's waggle dance, with predicates and combinable to a large number of phrases, is rare. The only other major example I can think of are primate ca…

Ok, I'll ask - is a bird or a honey bee more intelligent?

Before you answer, let me just say a few things...

Pound-for-pound honey bees are indeed impressive. I actually didn't know all of those things, so thank you for sharing. Since I am no bee expert, I can only offer general principles. But yeah, that's a lot of fancy behaviors crammed into just ~1 million neurons; great optimization. However, with so few neurons, and so many programmed tasks, it leaves very little room for flexibility in their behavioral responses, which are likely to be exceptionally dependent on environment stability (see #1). I assume most people would include behavioral flexibility in their working-definition of intelligence. So it would make sense to consider not just the total number of behaviors an animal can perform, but also the degree of cognitive plasticity baked-in to the system overall.

Birds also display an exceptional repertoire of behavior, despite their bird-brain (#2). Youtube has endless examples of birds doing incredible and hilarious things beyond flying and singing. For example I remember watching a few vids on Bowerbirds not too long ago, which build incredibly elaborate domiciles in an attempt to impress their lady friends; the ones making nests near urban areas were incorporating a lot of colorful man-made trinkets they scavenged from the big city to woo the ladies (which I think suggests some level of flexibility). Crows are even more impressive. These birds are so smart they get bored; and when they do, sometimes they like to fuck with other animals for entertainment (or so it seems). Also this: #3. I think chickens could potentially display similar highly adaptable behaviors; but they are written-off as nitwits because you often find them as the product of being stuffed into a cage for 18 hours a day, and all basic needs taken care of by humans. I hold the same prejudice to the rats in my lab (good for nothing idiot rats, can't learn jack, so lazy); until I see a rat in the wild and it's all athletic and reading books and stuff.

All that said, I actually agree with your sentiment - that you cannot assume certain species are more or less intelligent than others, simply based on the relative sizes of their brain. However, if you take humans as the gold-standard for a highly intelligent species on Earth, and someone starts talking smack about our cousin being dumber than a honey bee, I'm going to take some liberties to make some sweeping generalizations of my own... but yeah, thanks for reeling me in on this. Apologies to the honey bee.

#1. This is highly speculative, but behavioral inflexibility might be a contributing reason to the unprecedented rate of Colony Collapse Disorder we are seeing in western honey bees https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder.

#2."Birds are remarkably intelligent, although their brains are small. Corvids and some parrots are capable of cognitive feats comparable to those of great apes. Olkowicz, et al. (2016) "Birds have primate-like numbers of neurons in the forebrain". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4932926/

#3. Parrot singing Drowning Pool song https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uguXNL93fWg

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#57
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This advert was banned for the same reason as ALL political lobbying adverts are banned from UK TV. Political lobbying is not allow on UK TV.

I think it's a great ad, and that it's an issue that will benefit from wider awareness (although it's got that anyway in spades during this whole thing), but I'm 100% with the decision to disallow this ad from being broadcast on TV. It is a Greenpeace ad, and Greenpeace is a political organisation.

No doubt it would reach more people if it was not banned - the Christmas TV adverts are exceptionally visible in UK. I think it was rejected by Clearcast (a commercial company) because its emotional punch was too intense: "There's a human in my forest, and I don't know what to do..." - Emma Thompsons delivery of this would have had hundreds of thousands of UK households sobbing and soul searching instead of watching the next segment.

I would support strong limits on the emotional intensity of TV adverts if fairly applied, but Clearcast have allowed many other exceedingly emotional advertisements, sometimes visceral and disturbing, for subjects such as traffic safety.

The reason they gave for rejection, that Greenpeace is a "political organisation" is a contentious accusation. Greenpeace does not admit to being such and is no more of a political organisation than WWF or Save the Children. In reality the UK supermarkets themselves make political donations and lobby to influence regulation and policy as most big companies do. Its a rhetorical accusation when it does not concern obvious party political organisations - which Greenpeace is certainly not.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#58
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what usage of "it" are you referring to?

Its use when referring to animals. Many languages have features of grammatical gender in general which has a specially humanizing effect on discussions about animals, even when their biological gender has nothing to do with it.

Many languages also gender chairs. Does this humanize them?

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#59
I don't know what about orangutans impresses me, but when I watch a video of an orangutan, it never feels like I'm watching a video of "an animal". There is something very "human" about orangutans, even more than chimps, bonobos or gorillas.

Re: Orangutans are the only great apes besides humans to ‘talk’ about the past

#60

Soon only humans will talk about orangutans in the past.

For anyone wondering why/if orangutans are a threatened species:

- Dramatic decline in Borneo's orangutan population: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/15/dramatic...

- Palm oil producers are wiping out orangutans: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/10/palm-o...

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