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Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

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Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#51

Post by 52-6F-62 »

mabbo wrote: post #40
52-6F-62 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live right off of King St. west— catch a streetcar along there anywhere bordering rush hour in the past was basically a no-go. You could almost guarantee you didn't arrive on time, and you'd have to plow your way on and off after waiting between 3-5 streetcars in any season. (I thankfully had to catch the 63 north to the subway instead) Even off peak hours catching a streetcar on King was a nightmare. King St is no…

My commute used to take me from the subway over to Spadina. For three years, I just walked 15 minutes rather than ever bother trying to get a street car. It took far less time to walk.

I've definitely done the same many times over.

I worked down in the Portlands and was dating a girl who lived at King & Dufferin. I'd get off the bus near St Andrew station to head to her place and I'd have to wait at least 4 double-long cars in rush hour to get on a crammed one.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#52

Post by xster »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #32
jgh wrote: post #4

I lived along there (king & bathurst) for a couple of months last winter and thought it was great. Combined with the new street cars along king st it's really pleasant. At the time r/toronto would have people complaining about a lack of pedestrians or whatever (it was -20 every day for like a month) but that didn't really jive with my experience. Even in the really cold nights I found that there were a good number of…

I live right off of King St. west— catch a streetcar along there anywhere bordering rush hour in the past was basically a no-go. You could almost guarantee you didn't arrive on time, and you'd have to plow your way on and off after waiting between 3-5 streetcars in any season. (I thankfully had to catch the 63 north to the subway instead) Even off peak hours catching a streetcar on King was a nightmare. King St is no…

Same. I was on King and Bathurst too was lucky to have had the options of walking, driving + looking for parking, biking (having lived in a couple of places in North America, Toronto drivers are mean to cyclists) or taking the streetcar and streetcar during commute time was easily the least reliable (and close to being the slowest). It was precisely because streetcar was treated like such a second class citizen on the road which this hopefully fixes.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#53

Post by xster »

blakesterz wrote: post #3

Buffalo tried this a few decades ago and it did NOT work. The entire area died, all the restaurants & retail closed. It took millions of dollars and many years to undo it and now the area is back and full of people. I don't know for sure the blame lies entirely on the clearing of cars idea, but that sure didn't help. The city (like many) fell pretty hard for a bunch of reasons at the time they tried this. https://www…

Did people also live on the same streets? That would change the entire nature of the area. It can't be an amusement park with a giant parking lot around it, it's a city.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#54

Post by jspash »

Sharlin wrote: post #35
Dave_TRS wrote: post #8

From Toronto here, and just wanted to clarify that the headline is somewhat misleading in claiming that "it worked". Article begins: > One year after Toronto turned King Street in a transit- and walking-priority street, streetcar ridership, biking and walking are way up. What "worked" is that removing cars did indeed make space for faster streetcars and biking - but this is not surprising, practically a truism! The p…

Did car traffic really just move elsewhere? Reduced demand [1] is just as real an effect as induced demand. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#Reduced_demand_...

Yes of course, as that was the purpose of this trial. Increase the cost (in time and convenience) for drivers, therefore reducing the demand to use this particular route by car.

In turn it increases demand for people using other modes of transportation due to the lower "cost" of different ways of getting around.

But if you are asking, did the cars from King St. just clog up other streets? Well, some of them did. But the increase of 20,000 users of the streetcars had to come from somewhere. A number of them were most likely the displaced automobile users.

Now the hard part is making the decision on whether or not the trade-off is worth it. The cynic in me thinks that the local businesses, or a vocal/powerful minority, will end up winning this battle and things will go back to how they were. Maybe they will reduce the restriction to a block or two to keep everyone happy. Time will tell.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#55

Post by mtreiber »

nayuki wrote: post #6

I live in Toronto. Traffic on King Street has improved dramatically, and streetcars roll through smoothly. Quoting from the article to make things clear: > Using painted jersey barriers and other low-cost materials, the pilot prohibited through car and truck traffic. Cars are allowed to drive on short segments of King Street, but not allowed to go straight through major intersections. So this means they need to right…

Best comment I heard about the Pilot was that Toronto built a new subway line with concrete curbs and spraypaint.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#56

Post by 52-6F-62 »

xster wrote: post #52
52-6F-62 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live right off of King St. west— catch a streetcar along there anywhere bordering rush hour in the past was basically a no-go. You could almost guarantee you didn't arrive on time, and you'd have to plow your way on and off after waiting between 3-5 streetcars in any season. (I thankfully had to catch the 63 north to the subway instead) Even off peak hours catching a streetcar on King was a nightmare. King St is no…

Same. I was on King and Bathurst too was lucky to have had the options of walking, driving + looking for parking, biking (having lived in a couple of places in North America, Toronto drivers are mean to cyclists) or taking the streetcar and streetcar during commute time was easily the least reliable (and close to being the slowest). It was precisely because streetcar was treated like such a second class citizen on th…

Definitely. I've only experienced that "second class citizen" treatment of streetcars on King, too. They run well on Roncesvalles, Queen, Dundas, College, Bathurst, Spadina, etc...

It's definitely improved monumentally. Also in part due to increasing service and the new cars have helped open up space as well. Of course, they couldn't have increased service as such without running the project or it would just bottleneck.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#57

Post by kristianp »

Dave_TRS wrote: post #8

From Toronto here, and just wanted to clarify that the headline is somewhat misleading in claiming that "it worked". Article begins: > One year after Toronto turned King Street in a transit- and walking-priority street, streetcar ridership, biking and walking are way up. What "worked" is that removing cars did indeed make space for faster streetcars and biking - but this is not surprising, practically a truism! The p…

How long is the blocked-off section? The article doesn't mention it. If it's a long section, that's a lot of businesses affected. Surprising though that the increased passengers of Trams didn't increase business demand in that section.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#58

Post by DKnoll »

kristianp wrote: post #57
Dave_TRS wrote: post #8

From Toronto here, and just wanted to clarify that the headline is somewhat misleading in claiming that "it worked". Article begins: > One year after Toronto turned King Street in a transit- and walking-priority street, streetcar ridership, biking and walking are way up. What "worked" is that removing cars did indeed make space for faster streetcars and biking - but this is not surprising, practically a truism! The p…

How long is the blocked-off section? The article doesn't mention it. If it's a long section, that's a lot of businesses affected. Surprising though that the increased passengers of Trams didn't increase business demand in that section.

It's not blocked off. You are only allowed to make a left or right turn when you are on King St.; you're not allowed to travel on it for more than one block. There are jersey barriers by some TTC stops but they're in place to protect pedestrians from being struck and slow traffic.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#59

Post by kristianp »

DKnoll wrote: post #58
kristianp wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long is the blocked-off section? The article doesn't mention it. If it's a long section, that's a lot of businesses affected. Surprising though that the increased passengers of Trams didn't increase business demand in that section.

It's not blocked off. You are only allowed to make a left or right turn when you are on King St.; you're not allowed to travel on it for more than one block. There are jersey barriers by some TTC stops but they're in place to protect pedestrians from being struck and slow traffic.

Ok, how long is the modified section then?

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#60

Post by DKnoll »

ams6110 wrote: post #14
jcroll wrote: post #10

I live in Toronto and the pilot project remains a very controversial decision basically pitting the interests of commuters against car drivers in what is for all intents and purposes a zero-sum game. The next question is whether there's a solution where everyone wins and the most immediate idea is a subway running down that corridor. Of course, the amount of disruption that would bring to businesses already crying fo…

Dense urban centers is one place where I, normally an advocate for privately owned automobiles, think they do not make sense. Too many people in too small a space for everyone to have and use his own car. I don't live in such an environment, and would never want to.

For the significant number of people that live in the area surrounding Toronto and work downtown it is sometimes the best option. Driving to work, including gas and parking, costs me only a few dollars more per day than taking the GO train and the TTC. It's also faster outside rush hour times and only slightly slower most of the time during rush hour. It might be an obvious choice in some metro areas but public transit in the GTA is not great.
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