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Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

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Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#51

Post by man-and-laptop »

SirHound wrote: post #31
man-and-laptop wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does prohibit them among the 28 member countries. They call it free movement. Each of those country's immigration policies is a loophole for the other 27. It's a loss of border sovereignty.

No, you are arguing in bad faith (or ignorance). British immigration policy is British immigration policy because as per European law it has mechanisms to prevent benefit immigration that is isn’t exercising https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:... The fact is successive governments have rightly identified that both skilled and cheap labour from immigration is keeping our economy afloat. Otherw…

> The fact is successive governments have rightly identified that both skilled and cheap labour from immigration is keeping our economy afloat. Otherwise we’d see them at least tap the brakes. But they haven’t.

OK, so a politician living a comfortable life thinks one thing. Individual voters thought something else.

I believe the document above refers to emergency powers to stop immigration control under limited conditions. It doesn't solve any long-term impacts that an experiment like "free movement" between 28 countries can have.

[edit]

I can see why certain things are more nuanced. Somebody mentioned that immigration from outside the EU into the EU, and then into the UK, has certain restrictions. These exemptions seem to be in place for the UK and Ireland and some other countries.

By TPM:

> It can get into 27 countries depending on their terms for immigration, but then cannot simply use free movement to move to the UK. This is incorrect. As a non-EU national, your rights in this regard are severely restricted. After five years in the EU, with a means of support, you are entitled to move freely within EU with the exception of some countries, notably the UK. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_resident_(European_U....

[edit 20:40]

My comment wasn't just its first paragraph though. There's the problem that monocultures (like in crop species) might be better in the short-term, but can create long-term risk (combine your strengths together on the one hand, but make the same mistakes and have all the same weaknesses). I gave the copyright example. It's a lot easier for the copyright lobby to take over one entity, the EU, than over 28 countries each with disconnected regulatory systems. Even regulatory treaties don't result in monoculture, because somebody can leave a treaty much more easily than they can leave a superstate like the EU.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#52

Post by zero_iq »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #47
zero_iq wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to common immigration policy, i.e. from outside the EU into the EU. This is distinct from freedom-of-movement for EU citizens within the EU. Such freedom-of-movement does not apply to non-EU citizens.

A person from country C can immigrate into the UK by immigrating into one of 27 different other countries, and then using free movement to get into the UK. This makes border control harder.

Indeed. But to become an EU citizen you have to meet the citizenship requirements, the common standard for which the UK has previously negotiated and agreed along with the other members, PLUS additional requirements and limitations can be imposed by the UK for other kinds of long term residential statuses. It's not like one member state is allowed really lax citizenship laws, so people can choose to sneak in through there, and restrictions can be imposed even by the UK for a limited period.

The UK manages to both have influence over EU immigration policies AND also have exemption to it for non-EU immigration, AND can apply its own limitations even for when immigrants get citizenship for a limited period. Yet many brexiters spout on about how the EU just dictates everything to us and it's all out of our control. Absolute rubbish.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#53

Post by benj111 »

So, do we (the public) get to see this agreement? I thought the vote was about taking power back from unaccountable Brussels etc, etc, etc.

So what happens now? If half the torys are already against this, there doesn't seem much of a chance of this passing. May has ruled out a second referendum (I know I shouldn't take her word for it, but I cant see her now announcing a 2nd referendum). So what now? She steps down/ is pushed. Then A) A Brexiteer takes us out without a deal. B) No one wants to take responsibility for removing us and calls a 2nd ref. C) election called. Then back to square one? This is the option I'm most worried about. Labour doesn't seem ready to stand on a manifesto of remain. The lib Dems wont be able to get a majority, so brexiting parties will win by default, except we have no idea who. And they wont have anytime to do anything.

Did I miss one?

Edit: Spellong

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#54

Post by lozenge »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #10

This all seems to be entirely moot, given that there is a slim chance of this deal getting through parliament - assuming it’s anything like it’s expected to be. What a colossal waste of time.

Nah, they're just blustering. Nobody would be crazy enough to let the UK crash out with no deal.

Err... I hope...

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#55

Post by andy_ppp »

keithpeter wrote: post #21
dogma1138 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corbyn wants Brexit to happen he’ll whip Labour into passing it.

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/11/... YouGov poll on labour voters would suggest caution on Mr Corbyn's part. I voted remain mainly because I could not see how UK could dis-engage from local markets and just-in-time processes without significant turbulence. Corbyn gave EU 6.5/10 marks, I personally would score around 5.5/10 or 6/10 mainly because of the treatment of Greece. Basically, like o…

So Greece should be allowed to run up huge debts and then not pay them back?

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#56

Post by tkcins »

SirHound wrote: post #39
Apocryphon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems conceivable that post-Brexit Tory governments would not do a whit about immigration for the sake of access to labor.

They couldn’t! Basic demographics mean this kind of approach would, like it or not, end us. Although given the global inverse correlation between financial prosperity and birth rates, we’ll be back on our feet within a generation!

The current approach will end the native population.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#57

Post by tpm »

man-and-laptop wrote: post #47
zero_iq wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to common immigration policy, i.e. from outside the EU into the EU. This is distinct from freedom-of-movement for EU citizens within the EU. Such freedom-of-movement does not apply to non-EU citizens.

A person from country C can immigrate into the UK by immigrating into one of 27 different other countries, and then using free movement to get into the UK. This makes border control harder.

It can get into 27 countries depending on their terms for immigration, but then cannot simply use free movement to move to the UK. This is incorrect. As a non-EU national, your rights in this regard are severely restricted. After five years in the EU, with a means of support, you are entitled to move freely within EU with the exception of some countries, notably the UK. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_resident_(European_U...

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#58

Post by jwdunne »

dogma1138 wrote: post #22
digianarchist wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Labour’s position should be to oppose Brexit and to remain or rejoin Why? It hasn't been agreed at conference. There's a party for Remainers that want to ignore the referendum result they're called the Liberal Democrats or the SNP if you are up in Scotland.

Because that’s the majority of it’s members and people who vote for them want, they supposed to be an opposition party. If Corbyn wants to run his own personal personality cult he should go form another party.

And of the 52% that voted for brexit? The problem I've found in politics is that politicians like to 'switch' their mandate depending on what's convenient. Half the time, rebellious MPs justify their behaviour by saying their "mandate comes from their constituents". So what of brexit? The majority of Labour MPs represent pro-leave constituencies. Now the same people are saying it's the "will of the membership" when that means nothing at all over any other issue.

I'm pro-Remain but I think Corbyn has been misrepresented by our media and colleagues so much that he's not going to do well no matter what. Christ, he was criticised for wearing a coat in typical British weather laying a wreath at the cenotaph.

That said, there is a section of the Labour party that has formed a dangerous echo chamber. I was routinely attacked by "friends" after saying Assad is an oppressive dictator. I was called names like "white supremacist imperialist" and, almost as bad, a Blairite. I left the party because it's a festering whole of negativity, anger and irrationality. I have misgivings about those people influencing policy, which it would invariably would via conference if Labour attained power.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#59

Post by anticensor »

TomMarius wrote: post #33
jcranmer wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Britain stays in the European Union, then it won't have a lot of power to manage her borders. The "liberalness" of Britain's immigration policy ends up being at minimum the liberalness of each of the other 27 EU countries. Germany could let in 1 million immigrants (good for them), all of them would get citizenship, all of them can go to the UK, the UK can't say to any of them "Hold on a minute. Are you even a fi…

As soon as one is a EU citizen, they can move anywhere they want, without any restrictions, because these restrictions apply to immigrants only - as soon as one is a citizen, they are no longer immigrants. EU is different in this regard to the USA.

You also have freedom of movement in the US. I am unaware of any border controls between US states.

Re: Brexit: UK and EU 'agree text' of draft withdrawal agreement

#60

Post by anticensor »

zmb_ wrote: post #50
TomMarius wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As soon as one is a EU citizen, they can move anywhere they want, without any restrictions, because these restrictions apply to immigrants only - as soon as one is a citizen, they are no longer immigrants. EU is different in this regard to the USA.

This is not true. In the EU there is a freedom of movement of workers . EU citizens from another member state need to either have an employment contract or they can be told to leave the country after six months of stay.

> they can be told to leave the country after six months of stay.

Which countries practice this?

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