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How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

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Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#51

Post by qubax »

malloryerik wrote: post #28
cfjgvjh wrote: post #3

There is a page on the Ministry of Defense website listing curry recipes for various ships/subs/etc. in the JMSDF. http://www.mod.go.jp/msdf/formal/family/recipe/archive/curre...

I do wish they'd change the Japanese naval flag -- in much of East Asia the Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism, almost as potent as a Nazi swastika. It doesn't do Japan any good to fly the old imperial flag from every Maritime Self Defense Force vessel, even if it was the naval flag since 1889 (by which time Japan already had imperial designs).

> in much of East Asia the Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism

The british flag, spanish flag, french flag, russian flag and even the american flag are greater symbols of oppression and imperialism in east asia. I don't think we are going to be changing flags anytime soon. The greatest and most oppressive imperialists in asia wasn't the japanese after all. It was mostly europeans with a dash of american imperialism thrown in the mix.

But that's besides the point. Also, how about letting the east asians decide amongst themselves what they find offensive. No sense in us being offended on their behalf.

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#52

Post by Retric »

lawlessone wrote: post #48
rangibaby wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Japanese had to change their military symbols for that reason, every country in the world would. Even Germany still uses the iron cross as the symbol of their air force.

> Even Germany still uses the iron cross Yeah they're not using the swastika though are they?

Very different history on the swastika. The iron cross was used by Germany for 100 years before the Nazi party showed up. On the other hand, the swastika was imported by the Nazi’s and has non German roots.

Similarly, the Rising Sun Flag has deep Japanese roots and is thus less tainted by that time period.

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#53

Post by m_mueller »

etymacct123 wrote: post #42
m_mueller wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're aware that both European languages and Sanskrit have a common ancestor, Proto-Indo-European? That's how you find identical wordstems like "Pa" for father in both (if I remember the example correctly). Something as basic as soup would be easy to imagine going back to PIE no?

of course but PIE is an imagined language with an imaginary date of 2500 BC lack of any attestation kills all PIE claims whereas sanskrit is a solidly real language with a lot of evidence that it dates back to 4th millennium BC or even much further back for the rg veda evidence that is vociferously ignored or censored in the west for various reasons so the tactic of making sanskrit a daughter language of PIE is not a…

So if you don’t accept PIE, what‘s the model you accept? Did Indian and European peoples migrate out of Africa separately according to your model? Using languages to analyze this is indeed a crude tool, but we have something better now: DNA evidence. And so far I at least never heard of DNA being used to disproof the Indo-European relationship, as opposed to some other hypothetical proto-people like Finno-Ugric-Mongolian-Korean-Japanese, whathever the name for that was.

You seem to be a bit emotionally attached to this? I for one like imagining that such a vast and diverse bunch of peoples may go back to just a couple of families crossing deserts, jungles and plains together.

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#54

Post by malloryerik »

qubax wrote: post #51
malloryerik wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wish they'd change the Japanese naval flag -- in much of East Asia the Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism, almost as potent as a Nazi swastika. It doesn't do Japan any good to fly the old imperial flag from every Maritime Self Defense Force vessel, even if it was the naval flag since 1889 (by which time Japan already had imperial designs).

> in much of East Asia the Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism The british flag, spanish flag, french flag, russian flag and even the american flag are greater symbols of oppression and imperialism in east asia. I don't think we are going to be changing flags anytime soon. The greatest and most oppressive imperialists in asia wasn't the japanese after all. It was mostly european…

> The british flag, spanish flag, french flag, russian flag and even the american flag are greater symbols of oppression and imperialism in east asia.

I'm sorry but this is simply incorrect, I mean it's not even close. For example you'll see people wearing all of those flags (except the Russian) on their clothing, and you might even see someone wear a Japanese flag (rarely) but never ever the Rising Sun Flag which, btw, isn't a national flag at all, but a military flag. It was, for example, banned at the Beijing Olympics. Please don't try this but if you went outside in many East Asian countries with a big Rising Sun Flag you might not even make it down the street.

Second, the Japanese Empire was not at all like the British, French or Spanish in East Asia. However we can say that European imperialism and European racism strongly pushed Meiji-era Japan to seek an empire. At times the Japanese Empire was more brutal than others, at times it did serious economic development, and during World War II it was horrific to say the least. The European Empires in East Asia were no saints. Look at China. European meddling is remembered as shameful. Japanese conquest and war is remembered as catastrophic and evil.

Please, ask a Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese, Vietnamese what they think.

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#55

Post by temp0876456 »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #49
temp0876456 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thai curry is cooked quickly, usually in a wok. Japanese curry, in contrast, is usually simmered for a long time. The latter is to thicken and soften the meat and vegetables. Thai curry’s consistency is managed by using more or less coconut milk vs the actual paste. And the meat and vegetable pieces are cut much smaller so they cook almost instantly.

Depends on the recipe a traditional Rogan Josh should be marinated for 24-48 Hours. I also tend to do tika in a wok if I am doing a curry then simmer the cocked chicken in the wok to finish it off.

We were discussing Thai curry. There are some dishes cooked in Thailand that are marinated or slow cooked, but curries aren’t. Southern curries are cooked a little longer. But it’s common to get e.g., massaman curry in Thailand with undercooked potatoes.

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#56

Post by nindalf »

malloryerik wrote: post #38
rangibaby wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Japanese had to change their military symbols for that reason, every country in the world would. Even Germany still uses the iron cross as the symbol of their air force.

I don't see why every country would have to change their symbol. Yes, all countries have guilt in their pasts, as do all people, but Imperial Japan was a fascist regime that killed 50 million often with horrific brutality. And let's remember, it's just a war flag, you can change it with the stroke of a pen. The flag won't care. The Self Defense Forces won't start to suck, and the neighbors will have one less reason t…

I feel like the people who would be upset about the flag would also be the same people who wouldn’t be satisfied by merely a flag change. They’d say “so what if you just changed your flag? Now change the history curriculum in high school”. And they wouldn’t stop there either, they’d ask for further changes because it’s never enough. “ Why haven’t you demolished the Yasukuni shrine yet?”

I’m _not_ saying that a country that committed crimes in the past shouldn’t have to atone for that by making changes. Germany did this much better than Japan. All I’m saying is that there will be people in the country who will oppose kowtowing to requests like the one you’ve made because they think it’s impossible to satisfy people who make such requests.

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#57

Post by escherplex »

stubish wrote: post #43
escherplex wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting that a synonym for கறி is தேய் which google-tamil translates as either curry or chafe the later meaning to warm by rubbing which then may be an attempt to curry favor with someone :)

If you curry a horse, you are (generally) not cooking it but brushing it with a curry comb (the chafe or rubbing meaning). This would be where 'currying favor' comes from, since horses tend to like being curried. If Google Translate is machine learned for Tamil->English, I suspect it is just confused.

That was simply an amusing illustration of an English word which lacks a clean etymology or consistent usage

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#58

Post by etymacct123 »

m_mueller wrote: post #53
etymacct123 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

of course but PIE is an imagined language with an imaginary date of 2500 BC lack of any attestation kills all PIE claims whereas sanskrit is a solidly real language with a lot of evidence that it dates back to 4th millennium BC or even much further back for the rg veda evidence that is vociferously ignored or censored in the west for various reasons so the tactic of making sanskrit a daughter language of PIE is not a…

So if you don’t accept PIE, what‘s the model you accept? Did Indian and European peoples migrate out of Africa separately according to your model? Using languages to analyze this is indeed a crude tool, but we have something better now: DNA evidence. And so far I at least never heard of DNA being used to disproof the Indo-European relationship, as opposed to some other hypothetical proto-people like Finno-Ugric-Mongo…

there is no dna that encodes for language

how europeans got their language is not our problem

neither the yamnaya r1b z2103 nor sintashta r1a z2125 amounted to much in world history and the sintashtans were just scythians or what we called shakas

these geneticists are just looking for keys under the streetlight ignoring actual evidence

rest of the dna debate is massively hyped propaganda and search for relevance and funding

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#59

Post by qubax »

malloryerik wrote: post #54
qubax wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in much of East Asia the Rising Sun Flag is seen as a symbol of oppression and Japanese imperialism The british flag, spanish flag, french flag, russian flag and even the american flag are greater symbols of oppression and imperialism in east asia. I don't think we are going to be changing flags anytime soon. The greatest and most oppressive imperialists in asia wasn't the japanese after all. It was mostly european…

> The british flag, spanish flag, french flag, russian flag and even the american flag are greater symbols of oppression and imperialism in east asia. I'm sorry but this is simply incorrect, I mean it's not even close. For example you'll see people wearing all of those flags (except the Russian) on their clothing, and you might even see someone wear a Japanese flag (rarely) but never ever the Rising Sun Flag which, b…

> I'm sorry but this is simply incorrect, I mean it's not even close.

It isn't incorrect. It's history. Europeans have been colonizing east asia for a long time. China and most of asia consider what the europeans did to them the "age of humiliation".

> It was, for example, banned at the Beijing Olympics. Please don't try this but if you went outside in many East Asian countries with a big Rising Sun Flag you might not even make it down the street.

I agree. But that's politics rather than history.

> Second, the Japanese Empire was not at all like the British, French or Spanish in East Asia.

You are right. Lots of nationalists in asia credit the japanese for ending european colonization in asia. So it is different.

> Japanese conquest and war is remembered as catastrophic and evil

For political reason, not historical reason.

> Please, ask a Chinese, Korean, Taiwanese, Vietnamese what they think.

What makes you think I haven't?

As I said, for political expediency, it is easier for asians to scapegoat the japanese, but many educated asians respect what the japanese did to rid asia of european colonization.

That doesn't mean they don't abhor what the japanese empire did to them. It just means they appreciate that the japanese helped end european/white domination of asia.

After all, the japanese were the first asian nation to defeat a european power. And it's why most of asia ( including china ) model themselves after japan to a degree.

You are mistaking optics political expediency for history and reality.

Re: How Curry Became a Japanese Naval Tradition

#60

Post by Isamu »

Just want to chime in to say Japanese curry is awesome! Nothing against Indian or Thai curry, I love those different varieties too.

But just that Japanese curry is its own thing, it is very different and you might like it even if you shy away from other kinds.

Anybody here a fan of Japanese curry?

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