Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say • Hacker News Board

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#51

Post by aethertap » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

wahern wrote: post #50

aethertap wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly tangential, but regarding the definition of "natural," I personally prefer to think in terms of concentrates. The chemicals in question exist in nature in many cases, or at least there is a similar naturally occurring compound. The main thing that I think makes a useful distinction is the concentration level. Like other drugs, the danger is in the dose, and the extreme levels of potency we can get with a lit…

Pesticides in organic farming are also highly concentrated (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming#Pesticides ), which would make them synthetic per your definition. Which is fine, but it means that from your perspective organic farming is non-existent.

Yes, that's absolutely correct, and is actually part of the point I was attempting to make. I grow vegetables and fruits at small-farm scale (1-3 acres in production generally) in a way that I'd call organic if the term wasn't already taken - I don't spray anything at all, and use no concentrates for fertility or weed control. This has the predictable effect of reducing my overall yield in the short term, but I've found that I can still produce well as long as I'm careful to choose crops that are adapted to my region and use high biodiversity insectary plantings and trap crops for pest management. Weeding is done mechanically (usually with a hoe or a wheel hoe, occasionally with the walk-behind tractor for large areas).

I know many organic farmers who follow practices similar to mine as well. The organic name is really more of an indicator of intent for a lot of people - you can get away with a lot of things and still be certified, but most of the growers I know actually do make a strong effort to find another way. So, the organic label does actually carry some weight with me despite the fact that it can be abused.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#52

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #40

vixen99 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or in 2050, wondering why in 2018, mercury amalgam (Hg is an established neurotoxin) was still in significant use (except in Norway, Sweden and Denmark) as a dental filler.

Other people appear to be down-voting you, so I'll comment instead: The standard defense is that the mercury is locked in place inside the amalgam, and does not migrate. I've never looked at the evidence either way.

I remember in Germany there were lots of studies that showed mercury leaking out. Dentists fought for quite a while but I don't think they are in use anymore. I got my amalgam fillings taken out in the 90s and replaced with plastic and ceramic.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#53

Post by bluntfang » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:08 PM UTC

jugg1es wrote: post #2

Organophosphates are like the primary insecticide used worldwide. How do you replace it? I don't see anywhere where they propose an alternative.

sounds like an interesting way to create jobs, since alternatives probably won't produce as much yield, thus requiring more farms/farmers.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#54

Post by thatcat » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:10 PM UTC

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #40

vixen99 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or in 2050, wondering why in 2018, mercury amalgam (Hg is an established neurotoxin) was still in significant use (except in Norway, Sweden and Denmark) as a dental filler.

Other people appear to be down-voting you, so I'll comment instead: The standard defense is that the mercury is locked in place inside the amalgam, and does not migrate. I've never looked at the evidence either way.

That's the defense against removing amalgam that has already been introduced, it's safer locked away than trying to drill it out and risking high level exposure.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#55

Post by kup0 » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #22

dragontamer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, its sorta why GMOs exist. To reduce the need of pesticides that are sprayed on farms. I've always considered GMOs to be the lesser evil when compared to standard pesticide usage. Not all produce have a insect-resistant type however. So pesticides are still needed to protect certain plants.

> I've always considered GMOs to be the lesser evil when compared to standard pesticide usage. Breeding poisonous crops has its own obvious disadvantages. Is it better to spray poison on your food that can be washed off, or is it better for the food to be naturally suffused with poison?

Equating GMOs and "poison" is intellectually dishonest

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#56

Post by projektfu » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #29

dragontamer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, its sorta why GMOs exist. To reduce the need of pesticides that are sprayed on farms. I've always considered GMOs to be the lesser evil when compared to standard pesticide usage. Not all produce have a insect-resistant type however. So pesticides are still needed to protect certain plants.

No, mainstream popular production GMOs have precisely the opposite purpose. They're there to be be selectively resistant to bucketloads of herbicides while everything around them dies. Living next door to this and trying to grow things that aren't corn or soy is "fun", let me tell you.

There are several different approaches to GMO crops. One, like you say, is the herbicide-ready crop. Another is the insecticidal crop, like Bt-Corn, that produces insecticides that kill common pests, and works in the way that the other poster suggests. Yet a third is to impart nutritional characteristics to a crop that weren't there before, like vitamin-A-producing rice. Of course, there are also the usual goals of higher yield, drought resistance, reduced waste, ease of harvesting and regularity of product. The hybridization and selective breeding processes have done the majority of work in those areas and are not considered GMO by most activists, but they are nonetheless modified.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#57

Post by projektfu » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:21 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #48

mitchtbaum wrote: post #44

Would diatomaceous earth be a cost effective replacement?

It's not patentable... And probably the physical nature of the powder makes it fundamentally different.

Organophosphates are well past patentability. You'd be hard pressed to introduce a new one that outperforms the old. They're used because they're off patent and cheap to acquire.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#58

Post by projektfu » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #49

stephengillie wrote: post #19

Let's "kill 2 birds with one stone" and also fight the obesity crisis by having children pick weeds. Call it a "Synergy class between botany science and physical education". Edit: The suggestion that children learn a basic trade, while getting exercise, and providing economic benefit, seems very unpopular. Please suggest a better solution for these problems - maybe you think adults would benefit more from this?

I upvoted... Because I hope this was a joke with tounge planted firmly in cheek.

Perhaps the children could feed off the insects they pick from the plants. /s

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#59

Post by throwaway5752 » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #46

throwaway5752 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RoundUp is the trade name for glyphosate, which is an herbicide, not a pesticide. RoundUp Ready is the trade name for glyphosate-resistant strains of crops. RoundUp and RoundUp Ready are both copyrights of Monsanto.

Herbicides are pesticides. Insecticides are also pesticides. I have my Ontario sprayer's license in my wallet. I had to take a day long course on this topic to get it. Own a hobby farm. Thanks.

Thanks for the correction - that's been a long term misconception of mine, apparently. I thought pesticides as a term excluded herbicides (basically catch all term for insecticides, rodenticides). Seriously, I appreciate that very much.

Re: Ban organophosphate pesticides to protect children's health, experts say

#60

Post by thaumasiotes » Thu, Oct 25, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

kup0 wrote: post #55

thaumasiotes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've always considered GMOs to be the lesser evil when compared to standard pesticide usage. Breeding poisonous crops has its own obvious disadvantages. Is it better to spray poison on your food that can be washed off, or is it better for the food to be naturally suffused with poison?

Equating GMOs and "poison" is intellectually dishonest

I'm not equating GMOs and poison. I'm equating pesticides and poison. A plant that doesn't need pesticides is just a plant that produces them internally.

And in fact, the effort to breed naturally pest-resistant crops keeps running into the problem that pest-resistant crops are also human-resistant. It's all the same thing from the plant's perspective.