America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#51

Post by ivl » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #33

firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

The problem is that pay isn't uniform across skilled labor demand, and the purpose of the H1B program is to fulfill demand in the economy. If you set a quota and give to the highest bidder, you're going to see private sector executives and financial roles being filled in cities with high costs of living and competitive wages. Salary is a function not only of demand but also location and industry. This will discrimina…

> This will deprive rural and middle America on the skilled labor that they need to survive.

That's kind of already happened. Since the recession almost all new jobs created were in cities and metro areas, and mostly to educated workers.

Rural and middle America have this problem all on their own: skilled labor does not want to live in rural and middle America. Especially young skilled workers. There's even the concept of rural brain drain, as the top 5 % are sure to leave right after they're done high school.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#52

Post by gukov » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

sbr464 wrote: post #21

A side benefit that I hadn’t really considered but seems obvious; By taking in skilled workers from other countries, it’s like poaching talent from another company. Then they aren’t contributing to or building companies in their former country. Not sure the scale you would need to make a dent, but is there a name for this?

Immigration, World Poverty and Gumballs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#53

Post by lenkite » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #13

crusso wrote: post #6

deleted

No mainstream politician is pushing for completely open borders. That's a complete straw man. The closest quote I can find from a national politician calling for open borders is Donald Trump in 2013. "We will have to leave borders behind and go for global unity when it comes to financial stability."

AFAIK this is not a "complete straw man". Democratic National Committee deputy chair Keith Ellison (Minnesota) is strongly in favor of open borders, goes around wearing T-shirts saying the same. He has even been quoted saying that "America’s national borders create an injustice by keeping Mexican workers from traveling to the United States to look for higher-paying jobs". Maybe he has a point, however he does not share that opinion alone.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#54

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

protonfish wrote: post #19

Kephael wrote: post #7

The supply of technical workers is artificially limited by Leetcode style interviews. There doesn't seem to be an actual supply side limitation, especially not at the entry level.

That and a complete unwillingness to educate and mentor your workforce. I don't understand why the government should step in to help employers because they want training to be somebody else's problem.

Companies don't train their workforce because said workforce then leaves and joins another company, which then benefits from that training.

...that's how it was explained to me by an executive at my former job (a big part of the reason why it's my former job).

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#55

Post by EduardoBautista » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

johnvanommen wrote: post #47

bduerst wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that pay isn't uniform across skilled labor demand, and the purpose of the H1B program is to fulfill demand in the economy. If you set a quota and give to the highest bidder, you're going to see private sector executives and financial roles being filled in cities with high costs of living and competitive wages. Salary is a function not only of demand but also location and industry. This will discrimina…

You could index it with cost of living. So an H1B in a California company would expect to see a higher salary than one in Kansas.

That still doesn't consider pay differences between two completely different jobs.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#56

Post by michaelt » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #25

rrggrr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." Would need to be artfully worded so that sign-on bonuses and short-term employment is not used to game the system by permitting averaging down over time.

I think I agree with you (although I bet for different reasons) but, Why? What do you think is actually is the problem if highly compensated employment is used as a fast track to immigration and perhaps even citizenship?

rrggrr is worried companies will say "1 year contract, $10,000 per day first week, $0 per day subsequent 51 weeks" and jump to the top of the stack as they're paying $10,000 per day.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#57

Post by thrmsforbfast » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #48

firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

A nice idea but would make it impossible, for example, for my kid’s foreign-language school to bring in qualified teachers.[+] It’s difficult already as teachers switch jobs over the summer which over the past couple of decades has been when the supply is already used up. [+] English teachers are recruited from the California system. Unfortunately CA schools are so terrible that if the kids go back to their jobs,enco…

These sorts of "highest salary wins" rules should typically be crafted in an industry/sector-specific way. So schools have to compete with each other on salary but not with tech/finance/med. And then there are caps by sector.

The problem with this approach, of course, is that you need a judge/executive who follows the spirit of the law so that I can't get a bunch of cheap tech workers by saying "oh, job ABC in town XYZ is its own industry/sector and not comparable to SWEs at Google".

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#58

Post by zjaffee » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

ivl wrote: post #51

bduerst wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that pay isn't uniform across skilled labor demand, and the purpose of the H1B program is to fulfill demand in the economy. If you set a quota and give to the highest bidder, you're going to see private sector executives and financial roles being filled in cities with high costs of living and competitive wages. Salary is a function not only of demand but also location and industry. This will discrimina…

> This will deprive rural and middle America on the skilled labor that they need to survive. That's kind of already happened. Since the recession almost all new jobs created were in cities and metro areas, and mostly to educated workers. Rural and middle America have this problem all on their own: skilled labor does not want to live in rural and middle America. Especially young skilled workers. There's even the conce…

> skilled labor does not want to live in rural and middle America.

I'm unsure about this, and think it's kind of a chicken and the egg problem. I know tons of people who are from the midwest that would prefer to be there, but tend to flock to the coast simply because it's hard to find as rigorous of a professional environment back home.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#59

Post by ojbyrne » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #40

One thing that is incorrect here is how the Republican position on immigration is portrayed. They want comprehensive immigration reform that specifically allows skilled immigrants to come to the US, do away with the lottery system and eliminate exemptions for those that broke immigration laws. Basically, most Republicans would prefer a system that is more like Canada's or Switzerland's, where you need to earn your wa…

That page references John Boehner and Mitt Romney, who don’t have any influence in Republican policy anymore.

The current administration has repeatedly demonstrated their antipathy to legal immigration.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#60

Post by damnyou » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

dudul wrote: post #41

sbr464 wrote: post #21

A side benefit that I hadn’t really considered but seems obvious; By taking in skilled workers from other countries, it’s like poaching talent from another company. Then they aren’t contributing to or building companies in their former country. Not sure the scale you would need to make a dent, but is there a name for this?

The choice of word is interesting: encouraging immigration of skilled workers to the US has the benefit of preventing them from participating in the development of their home country. Short term, sure it's beneficial for the US, but I don't think it's a good idea to reflect in a vacuum or only thinking short term. Emergent countries being able to develop is beneficial for everybody.

What about the immigrants? It's a huge benefit to them!