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United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

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Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#51

Post by otterley »

maxxxxx wrote: post #12
Someone1234 wrote: post #7

I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Plus they're outright wrong that it constitutes "fraud," if for no other reason than the person skipping additional legs didn't profit from it, instead they simply limited UA's ability to further profit off of their travel. If this was "fraud" then any other airline discount or saving would be too. Shop around for the cheapest pric…

How about selling a ticket and then telling me I can't get on the flight because it's overbooked. Is that fraud too?

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.)

No, because overbooking is disclosed in the Contract of Carriage. See https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/contract-of-carriage.ht..., section 5G.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#52

Post by [deleted] »

drak0n1c wrote: post #44
mynameisvlad wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, the equivalent is telling them to "keep the fries" since airlines can then re-sell your ticket or offer it to standby customers.

Not really - the vast majority of people who engage in this behavior do not notify the airline that they aren't showing up. The pool of standbys for the average flight is typically tiny or non-existent, and it's practically impossible to find a buyer for a ticket within the 15 minutes that airlines might be allowed to invalidate a paid customer's reservation and resell it. Wasted seats on flights is a much bigger env…

[deleted]

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#53

Post by nneonneo »

394549 wrote: post #39
nneonneo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, this isn't a legal debt that they can forward to a collection agency, as pointed out in the article. They can't legally ding your credit for this (you've paid all your actual outstanding obligations to them), and if they do, I imagine the counterclaims could be significant (reputational damage, monetary losses due to higher interest rates or ineligible loans, etc.). Now, if this were the "social credit" system o…

> Nah, this isn't a legal debt that they can forward to a collection agency, as pointed out in the article. My understanding is that many collection agencies aren't very scrupulous about they debts they try to collect. Many of them are false, already paid, or lacking necessary documentation.

What United is threatening to do is forward a clearly uncollectable debt to a collection agency. This is pretty much fraud at its finest - they know it's not supposed to be collectable. It doesn't matter if the collection agency comes after you - United is on the hook for having forwarded that debt in the first place.

Yes, in an ideal world, collection agencies would properly verify the debts they collect on, but they definitely can't be arsed to do that voluntarily without gov't regulation saying so (and this administration is unlikely to provide said regulation).

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#54

Post by otterley »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #21

I doubt United will prevail in there efforts. It's "Contract of Carriage"[1] rule 6, sub-section J is where they put in all the verbiage about how they think they should be able to penalize you for avoiding their fare structures. It is pretty bogus and I'd love to see it litigated, to do that you really would have to do this stuff enough to get them to take action against you citing that rule, and then (now that you…

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.)

I agree that the Contract of Carriage is probably not the strongest basis by which United can demand recompense for abandoning a segment. Instead, I think they have a better chance of prevailing on a common-law fraud theory; see my explanation above.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#56

Post by computator »

394549 wrote: post #32
rconti wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is insane on a whole other level, because United profits when you don't get on that 2nd leg. If they're overbooked, they avoid having to pay to bump someone. They incur less in fuel costs, as the plane lands in its destination city with a slightly greater fuel load. Some passenger somewhere has a more pleasant flight because they have an empty seat next to them.

> This is insane on a whole other level, because United profits when you don't get on that 2nd leg. Not necessarily. If you use use hidden-city ticketing, they lost out on extracting the extra money they wanted to charge you for going to your intended destination AND the extra money they may have been able to charge someone else for the leg you didn't take. That said, I think it's the airline's fault for using an ove…

> they lost out on the extra money they may have been able to charge someone else

Not necessarily. Airlines have sophisticated yield management programs that should give them a good estimate on how many passengers are likely to skip the final leg of any particular route -- the airline can oversell the final leg by exactly the number of passengers who aren't likely to show up.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#57

Post by recursive »

kazinator wrote: post #6

Passengers who save hundreds of dollars should get a credit boost for their demonstration of financial savvy. I'd sooner give a loan to that person than some reckless spender.

Credit isn't a measure of financial savvy. It's a measure of likelihood to repay debts. It may be financially savvy to strategically default, putting the two in conflict.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#58

Post by FireBeyond »

drak0n1c wrote: post #44
mynameisvlad wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically, the equivalent is telling them to "keep the fries" since airlines can then re-sell your ticket or offer it to standby customers.

Not really - the vast majority of people who engage in this behavior do not notify the airline that they aren't showing up. The pool of standbys for the average flight is typically tiny or non-existent, and it's practically impossible to find a buyer for a ticket within the 15 minutes that airlines might be allowed to invalidate a paid customer's reservation and resell it. Wasted seats on flights is a much bigger env…

They do however, have a pretty sturdy belief, that despite being paid for it, you won't be showing up for the return leg (in fact, they tell you that you will be forfeiting that return leg), so they can resell it.

In fact, they also threaten the right to cancel your entire return trip, not just the segment in question.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#59

Post by FireBeyond »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #28
pjc50 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The airlines are losing money by having passengers circumvent the price discrimination.

As already pointed out, the airlines lose no actual money, but you are right in that they lose the theoretical difference between the discriminated price and the one they paid. That's not a legal debt, though.

Precisely. "Potential revenue" is not a dishonored debt.

Re: United Airlines Threatens to Engage Collections for Passengers Who Skip Segments

#60

Post by cft »

otterley wrote: post #49
Someone1234 wrote: post #7

I doubt UA would follow through considering it is illegal to submit known false debts. Plus they're outright wrong that it constitutes "fraud," if for no other reason than the person skipping additional legs didn't profit from it, instead they simply limited UA's ability to further profit off of their travel. If this was "fraud" then any other airline discount or saving would be too. Shop around for the cheapest pric…

Attorney here! (Not providing legal advice, though.) The elements of common law civil fraud are as follows: 1. Somebody intentionally misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person ("I am traveling to ILM from SFO" but in fact is going to IAD); 2. The other person relies upon the misrepresentation (United prices the fare as though the passenger were going to ILM instead of IA…

If I order a meal at McDonald's and don't eat the fries, is that fraud, because the cost of a burger plus soda separately maybe more than the meal with a burger, soda and the fries?
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