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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#51
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more widely distributed than electricity?

Find me high-voltage high-amperage connections on the side of the freeway though.

That doesn't cost much (far less than a gas equivalent) and can be installed alongside highways within weeks.

If people purchase EV _en masse_, they'll have charging stations everywhere. There's no egg/chicken problem here.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#52

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

Interesting bit about the Range Rover model, but from the fourth paragraph: > “In just 12 years, we will prohibit the sale of new diesel and petrol cars. And in 17 years, every new car in Denmark must be an electric car or other forms of zero-emissions car,” Rasmussen said, implying that hybrids will be phased out in 2035.

So hybrids are not as exempt as earlier discussion would suggest.

Any thoughts on converting a hybrid to an EV?

Edit: The engine cavity should be able to hold a lithium battery ~250+ lbs, and the 1.6 kWh NiMH battery is another ~250+ lbs that can be replaced with another lithium battery pack. If a Powerwall were used for each, the car would have 27.4 kWh, which I think would power my Camry Hybrid only about 30 miles. So maybe not very feasible until after another battery technology upgrade.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#53
post #8

2030 is ages away, try 2020.

Don't forget that car companies plan years ahead. Setting an end-date like this brings the subject on the table of the car companies' board rooms.

Virtually nobody buys new cars in Denmark because of the taxes anyway, and even if they did, it's a very small country (~5M) and would only account for a very small percentage of global sales. I doubt the subject of Denmark come up in automobile companies' board rooms at all outside of a small footnote on the occasional pie chart.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#54

While the promise sounds great, it's important to note that no law has actually been passed. Also, incentives to increase sales of electric vehicles are yet to be announced. Denmark's Scandinavian neighbour Norway is on the other side of the spectrum. Heavy subsidisation has caused every 2nd (!) car sold to be electric ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-norway-autos/... ).

Incentives are probably the most influential factor in the success of this effort. I wish them the best in making the world a better place but the cynic in me is skeptical. Generally top-down legislative approaches like, "it's illegal to sell a new internal combustion engine" flop, for example people will just buy and resell new cars to get around it. Better example, how corporations navigate tax laws. However if the incentives are carefully thought out, making ownership of a car that passes standards cheaper and less hassle to own, it can work. Controlling behavior is all about incentives, so behavioral economics bears no exception. In general I think a disparate amount of attention is paid to making top-down laws instead of addressing incentive. But that is beside the point. Now if only we could convince the 7 most polluting cargoships to curb emissions...

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#55
post #31

As great as it is, remember that hybrids are exempt. And the law is very lax when it comes to a definition of a hybrid - Range Rover has a model with a whooping 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, but of course it has an electric motor so it qualifies as a hybrid and could still be sold under this ban. I expect very very soon we'll see this kind of extremely minor electrification coming to all kinds of vehicles, where a t…

> 1 mile(!!!) of electric range, Other people have talked about this, but I'm wondering if the change to having electric drive motors and an engine just for generating electricity is more efficient and easier on the engine. (regenerative breaking aside)

No, but you don't need a complex drive train, like modern plug-in hybrids have.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#56
post #19
post #10

There is a long list of countries that decided to ban fossil fuel burning cars in the upcoming years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_foss... Personally, I don't think the ban will ever be enforced. It will create the right incentives and most car sales will be electric, but there will still be fossil fuel burning car sales.

Enforcing it is going to be quite simple. The "DMV" or equivalent will have a very hard time explaining why they are still giving out license plates for new vehicles that are not electric if the ban is made law.

Yeah, I was referring to the fact that the regulation won't come into force and will keep getting pushed back.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#57

Wonder what it'd do to the resale value of cars even before 2030. Denmark with their famous 150% registration tax already has cars being used much longer than what I've seen in other countries. I'd love to see the 150% tax waived off for 100% electric cars that are not luxury vehicles. Set strict constraints for a common man car, and incentivize it turning electric. Also, think about the charging infrastructure....

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

>I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate.

You will never understand it because those people have a completely different world view than you or I when it comes to taxation. You will also probably never understand a lot of other crazy things that people with different world views believe.

The idea that taxes and government involvement in everything should be the minimum possible is foreign to them in the same way that a woman is CEO of GM and that's not a problem to us is completely foreign to the Taliban.

Obviously it's a two way street and the idea that someone would want gas to cost $5/L and that someone might not be ok with a female CEO is equally foreign and impossible for us to relate to.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#58

I went to Denmark last year and spent two weeks driving all over the countryside, and likely would have been difficult to reach with an electric car. Many of the places I visited would not have been accessible via public transit. I'm curious how future generations will reach remote places as we move away from fossil fuels. BTW, I loved Denmark :)

Is this not enough charging stations?

https://i.imgur.com/dd9Jdzf.png (Orange are high power chargers, green are lower power chargers, source is plugshare.com)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incentives are to be anounced next week. If they follow the so called “climate panel” they will be horrible.. a Tesla will actually go up in price..

Do you have a link to the "climate panel's" recommendations that increase the Tesla price? I can't find any specific recommendations with actual numbers, only general stuff on suggested areas for inventivising BEVs.

The idea is that EVs are fully taxed the danish 150% car tax (on top og the danish 25% sales tax) but get a discount of about 50.000 DKK or just under 8.000USD..

For a base Tesla Model S, that would mean a tax of about 120.000 USD..

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#60

While the promise sounds great, it's important to note that no law has actually been passed. Also, incentives to increase sales of electric vehicles are yet to be announced. Denmark's Scandinavian neighbour Norway is on the other side of the spectrum. Heavy subsidisation has caused every 2nd (!) car sold to be electric ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-norway-autos/... ).

Incentives are to be anounced next week. If they follow the so called “climate panel” they will be horrible.. a Tesla will actually go up in price..

Tesla is already selling all the cars they can make. If the goal is a higher percentage of electric cars on the road, subsidizing them won't help. The more important thing is to incentivize other manufacturers to produce more electric vehicles.
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