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The Coders of Kentucky

nytimes.com

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Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#51

Post by jdhn »

ratliffchrisb wrote: post #46
jdhn wrote: post #40

I came away from this article feeling cautiously optimistic. As the article noted, they had 800 applicants, accepted 50, and graduated 35. It's great that those 35 got jobs, but what do you do with those 750 people who couldn't get in? Do you train them in something else that requires a little bit of tech skills, such as CNC machining?

I don't know what the exact cause is, but I got the impression the reason 50 were admitted was that there was a limit to the scale of the program, not that everyone else was unqualified. The article mentioned they are admitting 90 the next year and were continuing to expand.

That's true, I forgot to say that I'm happy that they're going to expand.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#52

Post by sidlls »

quiq wrote: post #42
sidlls wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I came to the Bay Area for compensation closer to the value I provide. I stay because few other places offer the same combination of opportunity, compensation, and diversity. I'd take a 10% to 20% pay cut to live closer to family in a less expensive area, but where they live (a Midwestern city) every single one of those three things is strictly worse.

Is compensation really strictly less with a 20% pay cut? I'm from the midwest and I have a hard time wrapping my head around the compensation differences. Google-able "cost of living" calculators give me an 80k range for my midwest city salary, that works out to 35-62% cut.

The cost of living adjustment doesn't include things like savings rate and is at best an apples-and-oranges comparison for housing. In my target city I could easily buy a house 50% larger than I currently rent: but the schools, parks and such would be worse. Think of it like social classes: to get access to equivalent schools and other county provided services (parks, libraries) I'd have to live a level (or two) above my Bay Area lifestyle, negating a lot of the base COLA adjustment. Also my savings rate would plummet: to save the same amount at typical incomes in my target city I'd have to increase my 401k rate by a factor of 1.5 or more, use more of my post-tax income for diversification, etc.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#53

Post by commandlinefan »

skywhopper wrote: post #20

I've been a firm believer for a long time that a lot of IT jobs, including software development, but also all sorts of support and operations tasks, should be treated more like a trade, with more formalized apprenticeship tracks and training. There's value in a traditional college degree, but there's still a lot of practical skills you can only learn on the job. But there's also a lot of potential talent in the field…

I’ll be curious to see what happens to the people who do have advanced degrees if a lot of the “traditional” jobs that require them today suddenly don’t. Will they be the next generation of PHB’s? Or will they just keep working the same jobs that they used to do? Will their pay go down as they do? Or will an entirely new sort of job emerge?

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#54

Post by aerotwelve »

burfog wrote: post #33
wccrawford wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the bootcamp. There's a local one at a decent university that turns out a ton of people with no real ability to program. It's not a very tough course, and so many people are able to get through it without actual aptitude by the end. On the other hand, I recently interviewed someone from an out-of-state bootcamp that was very impressive. They had been self-teaching for a while beforehand, but from the in…

I feel that the market for programmer bootcamps is something like the market for used cars. As in that famous economics paper (the lemons and cherries one), bad bootcamps might get rid of good bootcamps due to costs and the buyer's inability to distinguish. Here, the "buyer" is both immediate (the student) and indirect (the potential employer). I think lots of people really want something like a BS+MS in computer sci…

I'm not a fan of this view of the liberal arts.

To your concern of being "politically indoctrinated", part of the value of a liberal arts education is being exposed to ideas you might not agree with. If you don't agree with the opinions expressed in a class -- political or otherwise -- there is real value in being challenged to think critically about why you don't agree, and then justifying yourself logically via argument. Honestly, I often found this type of work more intellectually satisfying than in the cases where I agreed with an author/classmate/professor.

And this skill set is not purely academic; every one of us here likely utilizes it daily at our jobs. This kind of reasoning is necessary in software development all the time:

- Why should I choose X language over Y for this project Z?

- Why is my colleague wrong about the source of this bug?

- How can I convince his boss that I'm right?

(and so on..)

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#55

Post by tropo »

aerotwelve wrote: post #54
burfog wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that the market for programmer bootcamps is something like the market for used cars. As in that famous economics paper (the lemons and cherries one), bad bootcamps might get rid of good bootcamps due to costs and the buyer's inability to distinguish. Here, the "buyer" is both immediate (the student) and indirect (the potential employer). I think lots of people really want something like a BS+MS in computer sci…

I'm not a fan of this view of the liberal arts. To your concern of being "politically indoctrinated", part of the value of a liberal arts education is being exposed to ideas you might not agree with. If you don't agree with the opinions expressed in a class -- political or otherwise -- there is real value in being challenged to think critically about why you don't agree, and then justifying yourself logically via arg…

If "being exposed to ideas you might not agree with" is good, then why does that only get applied to students on one side of the political spectrum? Don't the leftist students also deserve the "real value in being challenged to think critically about why you don't agree"?

I could count on one hand the places where it goes the other way. Let's see, Bob Jones University...

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#56

Post by sanderjd »

User23 wrote: post #43
sanderjd wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rephrasing the parent's point in a way that I think is not inflammatory: " Anecdotally, the bootcamp graduates that didn't previously know how to code who I have worked with have provided net negative value - that is the productivity cost to the rest of the team has been higher than the value they have provided - and I think companies who hire them must not be aware of this possibility. " This has not been my experie…

This is why you almost always see "experience required" in job postings. It makes getting that first job difficult (you basically have to BS some), but you explain exactly why employers do it that way.

Oh yeah for sure. It's also why there's a "shortage" of senior people: not enough companies are willing to invest in getting entry level folks up to speed. Arguably, that is because employees don't stay at companies long enough to get a return on that investment. I personally think this is both true and a bit circular; companies don't invest as much in their people and those less-invested-in people are less loyal.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#57

Post by burfog »

aerotwelve wrote: post #54
burfog wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that the market for programmer bootcamps is something like the market for used cars. As in that famous economics paper (the lemons and cherries one), bad bootcamps might get rid of good bootcamps due to costs and the buyer's inability to distinguish. Here, the "buyer" is both immediate (the student) and indirect (the potential employer). I think lots of people really want something like a BS+MS in computer sci…

I'm not a fan of this view of the liberal arts. To your concern of being "politically indoctrinated", part of the value of a liberal arts education is being exposed to ideas you might not agree with. If you don't agree with the opinions expressed in a class -- political or otherwise -- there is real value in being challenged to think critically about why you don't agree, and then justifying yourself logically via arg…

There is some value in learning how to make a convincing lie. This is what you do if you are sane. You write up a paper about how communism is better, or about how white males are the cause of all badness, or whatever it is that the instructor desires. You don't have to believe a word of it.

Practicing this skill isn't worth giving up 2.5% of your life and the cost of a 3-bedroom house. It has absolutely nothing to do with the STEM education that one needs for many jobs in the modern workplace.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#58

Post by lozenge »

opportune wrote: post #21

I'm from KY. This article is great, but in focusing on these coding bootcamp graduates, it misses the much larger picture of just how much brain drain occurs for actual CS graduates (who, to be fair, are much less likely to be from Eastern KY). Right now they're taking millions in gov. money to train a small amount of people... but Kentucky graduates many more people with degrees in CS every year, by about an order o…

For somebody with student loans, how can Kentucky entice them to stay? In a way it makes more sense to do the retraining Interapt does. Picking up the older people who are less likely to want to move.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#59

Post by _tqci »

nodesocket wrote: post #44

> "Trump for President.” (Kentucky went 63 percent for him.) What does that have to do with the article? I really despise the media bias and overtly political tone that seeps its way into everything. I live in the South. The real story should be the economy is booming, opportunities are omnipresent, and the American dream of working hard and progressing your way up the financial ladder of success is obtainable for ev…

> What does that have to do with the article?

I'm from this area of Kentucky and the fact that it went for Trump has everything to do with the subject.

I'm 36 now, and coal has been in decline for almost my entire life. Yet the area cannot move beyond it because they keep waiting for 'coal to come back'. Politicians come and lie, and say they will return them to the glory days of coal. Trump came and told the most brazen, unrealistic lies of any previous politician. And so the state went for Trump.

Coal isn't coming back, and Appalachia cannot accept this. Until they can accept this and move on, Appalachia will always be impoverished. Sure the rest of the country is having economic boom times, but Trump made Kentucky worse.

Re: The Coders of Kentucky

#60

Post by dajohnson89 »

_tqci wrote: post #59
nodesocket wrote: post #44

> "Trump for President.” (Kentucky went 63 percent for him.) What does that have to do with the article? I really despise the media bias and overtly political tone that seeps its way into everything. I live in the South. The real story should be the economy is booming, opportunities are omnipresent, and the American dream of working hard and progressing your way up the financial ladder of success is obtainable for ev…

> What does that have to do with the article? I'm from this area of Kentucky and the fact that it went for Trump has everything to do with the subject. I'm 36 now, and coal has been in decline for almost my entire life. Yet the area cannot move beyond it because they keep waiting for 'coal to come back'. Politicians come and lie, and say they will return them to the glory days of coal. Trump came and told the most br…

Mentioned in the article: http://time.com/4793315/donald-trump-budget-appalachian-regi...
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