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Brain Drain Within the EU?

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Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#51

Post by rleigh »

ciguy wrote: post #47
rleigh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely a major factor for problems in both Italy and Spain is the crippling effect of the Euro and EU regulation. If the Euro were scrapped, it could make the economies much more competitive. Just look at how the drop in the pound over the last two years boosted British industry and exports. That's not an option for countries shackled to the Euro.

Most of the beauricracies I've dealt with in Italy have nothing to do with the Euro or the EU. And yet they are horribly mis-managed and run by corrupt nespotic maniacs. It's a cultural problem, not a regulatory one. And thanks to brain drain the young people are leaving instead of affecting change.

And yet, these cultural problems have existed for many decades. While I'm certainly not claiming that the Euro and EU are the sole causes of today's problems, the introduction of the Euro is the more recent change, and I think a more likely contributor to the recent economic problems.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#52

Post by mschuster91 »

michaelt wrote: post #33
ItsMe000001 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? I'm open to the argument, it just seems a little... well, short. Especially in a reply to a comment that said "The problems are more complex" :-) (now it's simple after all? I doubt it)

America has accepted massive, permanent subsidies from high productivity states to low ones. It’s one country, after all. Do the rich countries of the EU have the same appetite?

> Do the rich countries of the EU have the same appetite?

As a matter of fact, Germany and the other EU countries do massively finance the poorer EU countries (per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics#EU_b...).

Problem is corruption: EU funds too often get shunted sideways (e.g. for Hungary, https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/12/how-hungarian-...).

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#53

Post by village-idiot »

egeozcan wrote: post #16
village-idiot wrote: post #3

Random thought: the UK has the advantage of speaking English. First, that makes it easier for them to pull in other Europeans, since english is commonly the second language of most other Europeans. Second they can also pull in American and Canadian expats much easier than anyone else in Europe. Germany is more interesting to me. German is not exactly the worlds most common first or second language. So this is more ev…

Contrary to what most people believe, I see that native English speakers can learn German rather easily (with a pretty distinct accent, which I really like :)). Your point stands though, as they usually don't know this before they actually start learning, so they must have other reasons.

Oh, it’s not hard, I agree.

I just think that continentals being taught English so they can do business with the Americans is probably very common.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#54

Post by village-idiot »

dijit wrote: post #34
pageald wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there a lot of American expat software engineers in the UK? For most people, it would be a steep pay cut to move from the US to anywhere in the EU.

The thing with US salaries is that they're only higher in small circumstances, often what you'll find is someone is earning 100k USD and has an offer for 35-40k GBP will end up living a similar quality life. It sounds like it would be but that's not actually a pay cut. It comes from the fact that a lot of taxes are already given to the UK Govt, along with some strong protections for things like: private pensions, whi…

Also depends on your health. The massive difference in health care systems between those countries will have a big impact on your CoL.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#55

Post by ItsMe000001 »

whack wrote: post #42
ItsMe000001 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, the same problem that the poor(er) states in the US have. And yet, they seem to be content to stay within the union - so I think there may be a little more to it than a single variable? I'm open to the argument, it just seems a little... well, short. Especially in a reply to a comment that said "The problems are more complex" :-) (now it's simple after all? I doubt it)

rleigh is making the same argument as people like Paul Krugman. It's a controversial topic for sure, but I think it's unfair to call it "short" https://www.npr.org/2011/01/25/133112932/paul-krugman-the-ec...

> I think it's unfair to call it "short"

I replied to a comment here, not to Krugman. This should be obvious?

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#56

Post by Anderkent »

rleigh wrote: post #51
ciguy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the beauricracies I've dealt with in Italy have nothing to do with the Euro or the EU. And yet they are horribly mis-managed and run by corrupt nespotic maniacs. It's a cultural problem, not a regulatory one. And thanks to brain drain the young people are leaving instead of affecting change.

And yet, these cultural problems have existed for many decades. While I'm certainly not claiming that the Euro and EU are the sole causes of today's problems, the introduction of the Euro is the more recent change, and I think a more likely contributor to the recent economic problems.

Well, introduction of open borders is also fairly recent, don't you think that might have more impact on the within-eu migration than shared currency?

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#57

Post by Bayart »

ericd wrote: post #39
arximboldi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Spaniard living in Germany... part of that very same problem. Anyways, "taxes and bureaucracy" is not the problem of the of the european south. In fact, taxes and bureaucracy are both way higher in Germany. The problems are more complex and historical. The EU economic crisis have been abused by right-wingers to argue that we have a too heavy social system. In fact, the demolition of the social system in the so…

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

From observing Americans, at this point I'm fairly certain "bureaucracy" is their universal excuse to not get things done.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#58

Post by iguy »

rossdavidh wrote: post #23

I know it's not the same, culturally, but there is something similar that happens within the U.S. Places like Texas, New York, and California have historically had lots of scientists and engineers move there from places like Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Wyoming. This is also true of computer programmers. Of course, within the U.S. it is not generally as noticed or lamented, but probably it is harder to get a scientific or…

Something similar has long happened even within EU countries.

Gregory Clark was giving talks about historical data on this in England, looking roughly for signals of people who were born in the north, got rich, and tended to move south -- as many did.

https://voxeu.org/article/decline-northern-england-1780-2018

He goes so far as to claim that this migration has been strong enough to explain much of the present economic differences between north & south.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#59

Post by rleigh »

Anderkent wrote: post #56
rleigh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, these cultural problems have existed for many decades. While I'm certainly not claiming that the Euro and EU are the sole causes of today's problems, the introduction of the Euro is the more recent change, and I think a more likely contributor to the recent economic problems.

Well, introduction of open borders is also fairly recent, don't you think that might have more impact on the within-eu migration than shared currency?

I'm sure that both are factors. However, it was fairly easy to work in different European countries before the EU or the EEC existed, it just needed some paperwork filling out, so I'm inclined to think this is a lesser factor. There was migration for work between western European countries such as UK/Germany/France/Italy for well over a century. It has certainly increased in recent decades, but it's not at all new.

In contrast, the Euro affects entire nations, which can depress weaker economies as a result of it being tied to stronger economies like Germany. This affects every manufacturing and export business, with no way to become more competitive relative to stronger economies within the Euro zone. Wealth will continue to drain out to stronger economies. The currency itself is an insurmountable problem, it's not a level playing field, and there's no way to correct that without reverting to a freely floating national currency or political and monetary union. And the latter is not going to be acceptable to the public any time soon; the Euro zone is more likely to collapse before that ever happens.

I'd also suggest that a lot of the migration out of Italy and Spain is a consequence of the Euro-induced economic collapse, not the primary cause. Though it certainly will have a reinforcing effect. I've met plenty of Italians who migrated to work in the UK and US over the last decade+, and for most it wasn't because migration to the UK or US was a life goal for economic or other reasons, it was because there were simply no opportunities or a future for them at home. They would have liked to stay if they could. Open borders would have made this choice easier, but that's an enabling factor, not the primary driver. The situation for these countries is increasingly desperate; they need to have a future for their own people.

Re: Brain Drain Within the EU?

#60

Post by ericd »

Bayart wrote: post #57
ericd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the outside, the bureaucracy certainly seems like a big part of the problem. I've idly thought about moving to one of those countries and starting a company there because they are so nice . But one of the big things that kills those ideas are the horror stories about the horrible bureacracy, with non-deterministic results despite the same inputs. Starting a business is hard enough without spending time dealing w…

From observing Americans, at this point I'm fairly certain "bureaucracy" is their universal excuse to not get things done.

At least in the case of the French bureaucracy, it very much is the reason I'm not getting what I want done there done, and I don't think the Kafkaesque nightmare that that has been is my fault. Every interaction I've had with various US govt agencies has been a dream by comparison, especially the Federal ones, but even the terrible state ones like the DMV. At least with them the requirements to get the things you want are fairly straightforward and consistent.
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