Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac • Hacker News Board

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#51

Post by cptskippy » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

GeekyBear wrote: post #42

setr wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt the discovery of force touch itself is an issue.. it was in all their ads and they made a big deal out of it; when force touch can be applied, and for what purpose, is the bigger issue. The same problem apple has with option key. Right click is somewhat sensible: it works mostly everywhere, and gives you a “little menu” that you can equivalently find from the apps main menu. and it returns some result,…

In Windows 95, right clicking did not always have an effect. There was no way to know in advance if right clicking a particular thing would provide options or not.

Yes however the mere presence of the right mouse button indicates that there's functionality intended. A curious user might go around right clicking on things to see what the button does. Buttons are meant to be pressed.

Force Touch has no physically or observable clues to it's existence and thus does not encourage experimentation and exploration.

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#52

Post by jorisw » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

jmisavage wrote: post #6

rwc wrote: post #2

This direction gives me huge hope we'll soon see mouse support for iPad. It's the greatest handicap to doing productive work, particularly text editing.

I think we're very close. You can already tap and hold on the spacebar in iOS 12 and it turns into a trackpad like control for moving the cursor in textfields.

I don't think we're close. Apple will always insist on distinguishing between touch and pointer devices. Even now that they let you port iOS apps to the Mac.

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#53

Post by jorisw » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

bunderbunder wrote: post #10

rwc wrote: post #2

This direction gives me huge hope we'll soon see mouse support for iPad. It's the greatest handicap to doing productive work, particularly text editing.

Is full-on mouse support required, or do you really just need an easier way to reposition the cursor and making selections? If it's the latter, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Apple come up with something that only solves the latter.

The latter of which already exists: force touch anywhere on the keyboard to drag the text cursor around.

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#54

Post by Razengan » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 5:21 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #48

Razengan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than precision, why would you need mouse support on a touchscreen device with an OS that is built and optimized for touch? And you can get better precision from the Apple Pencil or other styli. Mouse-support would actually be a step backwards on an iPad; multitouch lets you do things that are impossible with the single pointer of a mouse, such as interacting with multiple UI elements (like sliders, knobs) at th…

Ergonomics, if you’re using it with a keyboard. Which a lot of people seem to these days. Keyboard-and-touchscreen is a bad combination.

I've been using an iPad with a keyboard and Apple Pencil for over a couple years. For different workflows you can use different degrees of tilt (to reduce "arm in air" fatigue) and place the keyboard to the side of the iPad (i.e. for painting apps.)

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#55

Post by Razengan » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

aplummer wrote: post #45

Razengan wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other than precision, why would you need mouse support on a touchscreen device with an OS that is built and optimized for touch? And you can get better precision from the Apple Pencil or other styli. Mouse-support would actually be a step backwards on an iPad; multitouch lets you do things that are impossible with the single pointer of a mouse, such as interacting with multiple UI elements (like sliders, knobs) at th…

Maybe controversial but I just find holding my arm in the air (assuming the keyboard is attached) to be tiring for big sessions. With a mouse I could relax.

With an stylus you can touch while keeping your palm rested. An stylus also gives you added reach which reduces the distance you have to lift your arm.

If you need to touch the screen frequently during certain workflows, tilt the iPad at a low angle (so you look down on it) and if you're using a detachable keyboard you can keep it to the side.

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#56

Post by GeekyBear » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #51

GeekyBear wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Windows 95, right clicking did not always have an effect. There was no way to know in advance if right clicking a particular thing would provide options or not.

Yes however the mere presence of the right mouse button indicates that there's functionality intended. A curious user might go around right clicking on things to see what the button does. Buttons are meant to be pressed. Force Touch has no physically or observable clues to it's existence and thus does not encourage experimentation and exploration.

Mice on PCs had multiple buttons before Windows 95 came along to sometimes gave that right mouse button a purpose.

Despite the fact that there was zero indication that right clicking a particular thing in Windows 95 might actually do something, and the fact that there was always an alternative way to access that information or function for those who only had a one button mouse, we managed to adopt the right click functionality anyway.

Force touch is no more a secret than the adoption of the right mouse button was in Windows 95.

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#57

Post by cptskippy » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 8:34 PM UTC

GeekyBear wrote: post #56

cptskippy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes however the mere presence of the right mouse button indicates that there's functionality intended. A curious user might go around right clicking on things to see what the button does. Buttons are meant to be pressed. Force Touch has no physically or observable clues to it's existence and thus does not encourage experimentation and exploration.

Mice on PCs had multiple buttons before Windows 95 came along to sometimes gave that right mouse button a purpose. Despite the fact that there was zero indication that right clicking a particular thing in Windows 95 might actually do something, and the fact that there was always an alternative way to access that information or function for those who only had a one button mouse, we managed to adopt the right click fun…

> Force touch is no more a secret than the adoption of the right mouse button was in Windows 95.

I don't think you understand discoverability at all.

People know there's a right mouse button simply by looking at the mouse. They might not know when or where to use it but they can see the button and know it has a purpose. The button invites people to press it and they might randomly try it in various places to see if it does anything and discover a feature. The OS is irrelevant.

You can't see Force Touch. You don't know it's there until someone tells.

Re: Marzipan: Porting iOS Apps to the Mac

#58

Post by GeekyBear » Tue, Sep 25, 2018, 10:43 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #57

GeekyBear wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mice on PCs had multiple buttons before Windows 95 came along to sometimes gave that right mouse button a purpose. Despite the fact that there was zero indication that right clicking a particular thing in Windows 95 might actually do something, and the fact that there was always an alternative way to access that information or function for those who only had a one button mouse, we managed to adopt the right click fun…

> Force touch is no more a secret than the adoption of the right mouse button was in Windows 95. I don't think you understand discoverability at all. People know there's a right mouse button simply by looking at the mouse. They might not know when or where to use it but they can see the button and know it has a purpose. The button invites people to press it and they might randomly try it in various places to see if i…

I believe I already mentioned that PCs came with multi button mice before Windows 95 came along and gave the right mouse button purpose?

Looking at a machine you had upgraded to Windows 95, you had no way of knowing that the right mouse button now did something, nor was there any indication of which items in the UI supported right clicking and which ones did not.

I reiterate my point that force touch is no more or less discoverable than right clicking was in Windows 95. They are both optional shortcuts to reach functionality you can already access in another way.